<p>I saw parents fight like crazy to try and keep their misbehaving kids from having some kind of consequences in middle school. It is sad – a great time to learn from the experience, to become the person you want to be, and these parents did everything they could to try and prevent the lesson. No permanent record consequences, nothing that needed disclosure to colleges – but a sense of entitlement that had to be seen to be believed. </p>
<p>I always told my D and S that if they got pg in college they were on their own. When S did, D said, “you do not want him with a child and wife without his degree”. I seriously never thought I would go back on this rule but did. I would much more have liked to stick to my decree but where that have led his life?
That said, I do think that setting the bar, telling them, but in the end dealing with their reality is the way to go.</p>
<p>Mod–I hope that you do your editorial but also put together a series of parenting classes for teens summering in the Nook. It would be great but you might have to wine and dine and maybe even pay the parents to attend.,</p>
<p>MP–never have seen a pic of you but imagine you as quite lovely.</p>
<p>Missy - I know exactly how you feel… and a tattoo is not judge worthy on the parents in my opinion. There are big fish and little fish and you need to know the difference. And at the end of the day, she did not do it behind your back, like my D2 did. I am not looking for perfection or a lack of youthful mistakes or indiscretions. But yes, when you act like a lemming and flagrantly break the rules or expectations, there are consequences. And truth is, there are consequences for a bad tattoo too! Put one on your face and see how that job interview goes, you know? Knowing when to pick your battles is a good idea, but refusing to ever have a battle in the first place is likely to cause problems. </p>
<p>Moda, PLEASE write that article ;)</p>
<p>I could riff on this concept for hours (used to a lot for an area parenting magazine.) its not that I’m hyper-strict, but I’m a stickler for boundary-formation as a critical and early parenting tactic (and responsibility.) I had the pleasure once to do an in-depth interview with Penelope Leach on this very topic.</p>
<p>Children without consistent boundaries, consequences and enforcement at an early age actually grow up deeply insecure yet self-absorbed and aren’t fit for community living. If you really think about it, the lionshare of our societal problems are rooted in insecurity and self-absorption that borders on classic narcissism.</p>
<p>My own sisters drive me crazy on this front. The last time the full gaggle was here, about a year ago, my younger nephew was misbehaving in the hot tub contrary to the rule I’d established about not dunking the other kids or putting his own head under. I watched him for a few moments consistently ignore his parents lame redirection, so I warned him once more and he would be banned from the hot tub. (My reasoning was that its MY hottub and I will not have other children put at risk being aggressively dunked in hot, chemical laden water. Kind of a no-brainier.)</p>
<p>So he ignored me too so I immediately picked him up and removed him from the hot tub. He was shocked and awed (as were, i think, his parents) and spent the rest of the day trying to convince me he’d listen this time if he could go back in. I was only letting the kids in for 15 min. sessions anyway, but even if that was weren’t the case I would have still said no. But I’d told him that if he tried a little harder to listen to the adults all day, and respect my rules, which were designed for our collective safety and enjoyment, I might let him have a soak the next day.</p>
<p>Said nephew did earn back his right to use my amenities and is now by far the best behaved of the lot when visiting 
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<p>The sister who is the parent of this child has over the years frequently asked for advice about parenting, and then steadfastly failed to give firm direction or boundaries to these children. I don’t know how much simpler it could be than that mini-demonstration. I know its hard to follow through, but its also the only way they get it. That’s why the consequences have to be reasonable and natural.</p>
<p>I remember when mcson was in grade 4 and was easily upset by a perceived lack of justice. I was called to the principals office over an incident wherein he would not leave the principal’s office and return to a classroom with a teacher because he said she pulled his arm in anger to make him go to the principal’s office and owed him an apology.</p>
<p>I know the principal was expecting a parental storm over this (we were new to the school.)
What had happened was the teacher in gym class did not realize that a child with CAPD cannot “hear” them in a noisy environment. Mcson did not hear the instruction to stop dribbling the ball. When disciplined, he tried to explain about his hearing, but was so upset I don’t think he communicated clearly, nor was the teacher interested in listening. He then chose to argue the injustice of having to stand against the wall, which made the teacher madder. She ordered him to the principal’s office and he refused to go because he did nothing wrong. So she pulled him by his arm,which allegedly hurt him, so he chose to tell her to stop, and made some comments along the lines tat she should not touch him in anger that then really got her mad.</p>
<p>So there I was in the principal’s office in a tough spot. On one hand, he was right, but he’d acted like a ■■■■■■. He needed to know I support his right to defend himself against injustice, but the principal needed to have authority in his eyes, and here he was wasting her time with comparatively minor stuff. Plus, he’d have to learn to navigate an unjust world.</p>
<p>So basically, I told him ( in front of the principal) he’d to some degree forfeited his right to civilized treatment by escalating the incident instead of complying and explaining calmly. Eg. He could have chosen to de-escalate the situation by voluntarily going to the principal’s office and explaining that he’d not deliberately ignored the teacher, and explain why. That there was a time and place to make his case. That while its true no one should touch him in anger, he also had to consider the extenuating circumstances of intent and whether at the time there was any other option to get him to the principal’s office since he was refusing to comply and agitated. And that we were now using up time, attention, and taxpayer dollars meant to educate, not mediate. And finally, that attending this school meant following their rules, and that his personal rights, disability or no, did not trump the collective rights of the school to run its environment as peaceably as possible, which included instructing dribblers to stop dribbling, whether or not they happened to have a hearing disability.</p>
<p>I then suggested that whether or not the teacher deemed to apologize, he should walk the talk and apologize to HER for not complying with her instruction to go to the principals office and for leaving her no recourse to get him there short of physical contact. Because they were BOTH 100% responsible for the exchange.</p>
<p>The result of all this was the pair made up in the principals office after I left, and he had an ally now in the principal, who had his back from that day forward. I think overall while it was hard to suppress the mama bear instinct to defend his conduct unconditionally, this approach was more useful to him in terms of navigating the world at large in the future.</p>
<p>Having a tough morning. My wonderful friend who has been battling breast cancer that has spread to her lungs is not doing well. She stopped all treatment a few weeks ago and entered hospice care. Her H sent me an email last night saying that her condition has deteriorated and she is not responding to them. I was supposed to spend some time with her this week but unfortunately the visit has been postponed. She has fought valiantly. Her D is supposed to leave on Friday for her first year of med school. So very sad. :(</p>
<p>KMC - to this day my S says that his punishments were worse than my D’s. Well let’s see when they misbehaved (when they were little) they had to go sit on the stairs. House is a center entrance colonial and the stairs are in the front of the house where the rooms have little use. So basically I was making them sit for 5 minutes off by themselves with no toys and nothing but a wall to look at. D would sit until the timer on the microwave went off (yes I timed it) but S no he was climbing the stairs or had secretly gone off to his room or managed to smuggle a toy onto the stairs so every time he was caught the timer got reset. There were days when I thought I would never get him off the stairs. :)</p>
<p>S is now the lawyer. He must have been scarred by the injustice of it all! </p>
<p>NM, So sorry to hear about your friend. That is so sad. Is her daughter still going to leave for medical school or is she going to postpone that? </p>
<p>Classes start the 18th. She has already taken the past year off to be at home with her mom so I think she will start.</p>
<p>So sorry NM. So difficult for that family I’m sure.</p>
<p>NM, that is so sad. Hugs to you and to her family.</p>
<p>kmc, what I love about your story is that you had confidence that your 4th grader could understand and deal with a rather complex situation. Bravo to you! Although my parents were not this way, the parents of most of my peers growing up had the attitude that “the teacher is always right,” when, in fact, some teachers were getting by with abusive behavior. As a backlash, many parents in our geneneration have the attitude that “the teacher is almost never in the right” when it comes to their kid.</p>
<p>Moda, I think some of the behavior you and others are describing is that the parents view themselves as “on vacation.” They want a break from everything, including parenting. My SIL can still get herself riled up over something our nephew did when that family was visiting her…the nephew’s parents just took a break from supervising him while visiting relatives. At my own house, my nephew (different kid) destroyed a few pieces of expensive property with my sister claiming that I should have been watching him. It’s difficult to never have a day off, but parenting is that kind of a “job.” </p>
<p>Very insightful, MP, regarding vacations from parenting. Up to a certain age, it really can’t be done!
Also, I think you may be onto something re: the teacher is not always right. I went to Catholic grammar school, but as the 6th of 7 children, my parents were disabused of the notion that the nuns were always right when it was my time for school.
KMC - there is no way my children at that age could have understood the nuances in that argument. Pretty impressive!</p>
<p>Rochmom, I’m in your camp when S and D misbehave, it was off to the corner for them. Once, when they both were in time-out, in the corner, they reached for each others hands as they sat there in silence. It reminded me of the last scene in Breaker Morant as the two officers faced the firing squad while sitting in chairs and holding hands. </p>
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<p>Love that story. That was always my sister. She lived to test boundaries. No wonder she remembers harsher punishments than I do!</p>
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<p>Adorable.</p>
<p>Woody how sweet! I’m sure my S might have reached for my D but only to pull her hair or hit her. :)</p>
<p>RM…that made me spit out my water!!! Haha! Too funny! :))</p>
<p>woody…that is very sweet! What a wonderful story to be able to tell! </p>
<p>NM, I’m so sorry about your friend, and so hard on her daughter right as med school is about to begin. :(</p>
<p>RM – that would have been the reality in my family, though I don’t think “time out” was a concept for my parents.</p>
<p>NM, sending hugs <3</p>
<p>Woody, that’s so adorable!</p>
<p>Mcson not only understood the nuance despite his tender age – he was the one using a sophist argument with the principal, refusing to go back to class on principle. When I had arrived, she said she was clear he was destined to be a lawyer, because he out-argued her and they were at a deadlock, which was why she’d called me in ;)</p>
<p>But remember he was a bit of a piece of work then. Precocious with super high IQ and had a “feelings doctor” who he’d seen regularly since our divorce at age 4 to sort out the world. As an only child, he’d also been a very early reader/talker and was literally ahead of his age by years, which made it difficult for him to relate to his peers or accept irrational actions by adults, with a major gap between his emotional maturity and capacity to reason. Very “little man Tate” which is why so many of his teachers thought he had Asperger’s.</p>
<p>He’s much more “normal” and “chill” now, at least on the surface. But sometimes I catch a glimpse of the lonely boy he was at times, out of step with the world and a bit rigid about it.</p>
<p>Yesterday, he joined a business associate and I for drinks and dinner at a bistro after work, and was quite taken with her. On the way home together, he commented on how nice it was to meet a local business owner as clever as her, and that one thing he really missed about Ann Arbor was the quality of his social circle in terms of intelligence and engagement. That certain people just seemed to “get” him.</p>
<p>I told him those people are out there everywhere, but never in the concentration he’d experienced at school. The task was to find and treasure them when you ran across them ;)</p>
<p>I agree with all above, there are both sides to the coin. My husband was one of those who told the girls he would not pay for school if they got a tattoo. I just kept my mouth shut. Seeing how things would pan out. I don’t think D1 did, but you never know with her. I also had a home where D1 thought she was punished more. I was very matter of fact about behavior=consequences. but it took her a while to accept that.
I think it is hard for highly intelligent children to fit in with their peers sometimes. Although not genius’s my girls were always interested in reading, and had advanced skills… But the books were too advanced for their emotional level. D1 dealt with the bullying in school about knowing things from her reading. “computer chip girl” she once asked a teacher “I am trying to figure out how to reverse gravity is that ok?” I told her that it was great and gave her examples of people who thought these kind of thoughts and made a difference in the world. My D2 is a “Old soul”
and sometimes this is difficult too. They both felt accepted and loved by us and that made a huge difference. We did change them in HS and they flourished.
I am just learning what KMc son is learning now. That it may not be a deficit in you , when you don’t fit in. That it may be that you need different people around you. </p>
<p>NM, I am very sorry you are losing your friend. Many people think BC is always curable, but don’t understand that it can be in early stages. But what people do to stay alive, is really tough, and there is very little for stage 4 disease. People who have BC know this and it makes everyday life rather challenging. I hope her daughter goes to school. As we all know our children our the most important thing and we would want them to thrive despite our illness. Big hug to you NM this is tough.</p>
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<p>Yeah, the irrational actions by adults can really get them in trouble. The “way more Aspie” friend of Son’s ended up in big trouble in HS after a loud, angry outburst in school. The teacher gave one of those “you either get 100 or 0” type of quizzes. Aspie kid could not process why he would possibly get a 0 when he had gotten most answers correct. It was likely that every kid agreed, but he was the one who let the teacher know exactly how strongly he disagreed.</p>
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<p>This may well have worked if it was something we had said “forever”…like “you won’t get a car for your 16th birthday” and “if you get arrested, you will spend the night in jail.” But tattoos seemed like something that was so far fetched that we didn’t need one of those life long rules, and when you absolutely know that the kid would say, “Fine, I’ll move into my friend’s apartment and be a waitress”, the threat doesn’t work.</p>
<p>(LOL that we thought arrest was conceivable but tattoos weren’t.)</p>
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<p>We all need to read that again. It is wonderful that we all know so many long term survivors, but DTE, we all need that reminder. </p>
<p>MP my H is rather black and white. he has some very strict ideas about things and I am more liberal. I agree with Moda about your D not doing it behind your back. However I think I would have been one of those behind the back kind of kids. I am a parent who isn’t very controlling. I think its best to have a tattoo that doesn’t show, as people still have attitudes about it. but I don’t have issues with them. It wouldn’t be my biggest concern. We saw a kid in a store who waited on us, was very professional and polite, my H made the comment that he felt bad because the kids future was ruined, as he had his arms, neck, chest covered. I thought it was a shame, that this would unfortunately happen. But then I thought maybe he wants to be in a band? then he would fit right in. I think people are too quick to judge then they miss out. </p>
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<p>I’ll admit to thoughts like that. Only our generation isn’t the one who will be hiring pretty soon. I think that lots of the folks doing the hiring will have tatoos.</p>