<p>NM, the apparent support of the athletics folks for drinking by the team in season is extraordinary (and not in a good way). Can your D branch out from the team to make friends. It seems like she is living and studying with the team, if I remember correctly. How hard would it be to find friends in other social circles?</p>
<p>NM, were there other schools your D talked to early in the recruitment process that she might go back to visit, or is she thinking of starting from scratch? Does she like her classes/profs/non-athlete friends?</p>
<p>Agree that the drinking is pervasive. The two kids across the street from us who are freshmen this year are both partying a good bit – and their parents were so careful to keep them in positive activities, away from the stuff, etc. The parents are pretty pragmatic about it now. Guess the kids all have to learn.</p>
<p>I’ve been following this w/interest because S2 doesn’t drink, nor has plans to, and the football team culture at many places can be quite the free-for-all. He gets flak in HS about it already.</p>
<p>Dear NM: Is there any hope that when her “season” is over she will have room and time to do some radically different things and branch out some. I know many sports have become “year-round” but I’m wishing that, even she decides to leave, she will find the space to meet some more non-teammates. Even just a few good other friends could make such a qualitative difference. And you know there have to be good hearted, non-drinking kids who are fun around (they just may be non-athletic klutzes she hasn’t yet met…) Hang in there.</p>
<p>NM D is at a small LAC and there is a lot of drinking there as well. Just as in my day it’s at most campuses regardless of the drinking age. H works at a campus and on the tours he always asked about the drinking. Some schools were more honest then others. The college D choose was very honest. She still doesn’t drink. She says watching everyone else make a fool of themselves is fun although when they get sick it’s gross. D is in a sport (DIII) and doesn’t feel like joining. Not her thing. At the same time she does go along but she feels comfortable with them even when they are drinking and everyone is on campus so there is no drinking and driving. I think the feeling comfortable iwth the group and in the setting is necessary. Doesn’t sound like your D had a problem with people drinking just the type of drinking that is going on and other things that are happening during that time. Being uncomfortable where she lives has got to be very difficult.</p>
<p>I don’t have all the facts but from the little info I have there is more than just the social drinking that has scared her off, something about being “forced” to do something…she won’t be more specific. Definitely drinking and driving going on. I think, perhaps, she wouldn’t have as much a problem with the parties if they weren’t during the season. She and one of her roomies are very close and this was one of her first parties. Now that the team was called out I am betting this roomie will be done with drinking until the season is over. We are also hoping D2 has an opportunity to branch out after the season is over. With early morning practices before classes, classes, afternoon practices, study tables in the evenings and games on weekends there is no time to meet non-team members. This would not have bothered her if the team culture were different. Some of the other freshman parents also indicated that their Ds were talking about transferring but didn’t give reasons. While we have given D2 the green light to look at other schools we have also told her we want her to list pros and cons of each school for us. She knows the drinking will be eveywhere. I think it is a combination of things for her. I think she wants to be closer to home, to be challenged a little more academically, and to be around more studious and industrious students. Some teammates have said they are glad she will pull up the team GPA. Ha! I guess she is more a “nerd” than a “jock”. 
We love her the way she is! We just want her to be safe and happy. We know if she is doing well in her classes and on the field during this situation she can be successful anywhere. A lot can happen between now and May!</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Modadunn, please tell me you don’t have 15 daughters!</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I agree–I am very surprised also. I would have thought that coaches would have realized that how his or her athletes act outside of team events could cost them their jobs. I’m thinking of the Duke LAX coach and the Colorado football coach who lost his job because his team was hosting parties for high school recruits that included plying them with alcohol and sex. </p>
<p>The team culture is a reflection of the control the coach has. I think that it is nuts to give the asylum over to the inmates. The coach needs to set the team culture.</p>
<p>NM, I’d like to slap your D’s coaches, hard, and then smack the school administration around some, too. They KNOW underaged kids are drinking, and I don’t care HOW pervasive it is on college campuses, they should be doing something about it!</p>
<p>The coach can insist his players stay dry during the season, as someone else mentioned another coach does, as a first step. And bench anyone who doesn’t comply, and if that means there are TWO players left, well, then, the team forfeits the game. Bet the team wouldn’t have to forfeit more than one game to start making a change in the culture!</p>
<p>I’m so sorry for your daughter, and completely disgusted with the attitude of the people in charge. Honestly, they need to be whacked with a cluebat!</p>
<p>I agree with JLS what maturity to recognize an uncomfortable situation , and to stand up for beliefs. That is difficult. i hope the situation sorts itself out, if not many kids transfer and are happier for it. Not the easiest of solutions.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The thing is, beliefs or no beliefs, underaged drinking is illegal. I don’t know if my son will drink or not as the years go on, but right now his thing is, “It’s against the law.” Which is true. </p>
<p>If a team (or any other group) learns that it’s okay with those in charge to ignore the alcohol consumption laws, are there other laws that it’s okay to ignore, too? Perhaps sexual harrassment laws? Or disablilities laws? I hate for any group of kids to get the impression that the “rules” don’t apply to them. It’s the student who will suffer any legal consequences that may befall them for breaking laws - not the coach who turned a blind eye.</p>
<p>missypie- agree, the illegal aspect is certainly something. Yet, I think if I had to choose, I would say that it would be (even) more important to me to have my child taking a stand for self-respect, self-protection, individuality and not going along with a crowd doing things that were potentially harmful or degrading (vs. a legalistic adherance to the law). Also – laws have changed often over the years (18 year olds can drink…no they can’t they have to be 21…okay, well, now 18 year olds can again). </p>
<p>My 21 year old might be able to legally drink herself into oblivion as long as she didn’t drive – but I’d like her to have the fundamental understanding of why that wouldn’t be a good idea and the strength not to do it.</p>
<p>Definitely for the school/coaches/other adults involved – their knowledge of that illegal behavior (and implicit condoning of it) is inexcusable.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>A lot of us on this board could drink legally when we were 18 or 19, so it may not seem appalling or immoral for current 18 or 19 year olds to do the same. The coach may have the same mindset. But all of us need to remember that even if we think 18 or 19 or 20 year olds are old enough to drink, they can still get into legal trouble.</p>
<p>There is a local guy who must have absolutely nothing to do, because he has this website where he publishes the mug shots and arrest info of everyone who gets arrested in his community. There are so many 19 and 20 year olds who get arrested for underaged drinking. They may feel like adults, but their drinking still has legal consquences for them.</p>
<p>I have two daughters, one who is 24 and one who is 15, so it’s D24, D15. Both are just about to have birthdays. Hard to fathom my having a 25 year old, considering I was 23 when she was born. Fortunately, she says she is no where close to having kids, which I truly hope is accurate. While I love her to death and don’t necessarily have regrets, I really missed out on a lot of fun and self-discovery by having children so young. Plus… that husband didn’t last which only serves to convince me that marrying before 25 is most of the times a mistake.</p>
<p>Back to regular programming:
I fully agree with Missypie. However, I don’t agree with the current drinking age laws and am all for a provisional drinking age law. It’s hard for administrations to do much about educating kids about “college culture” drinking when, as you rightly point out, it’s illegal. It’s a really difficult issue all the way around. Coaches, however, have the ability to enforce consequences that don’t become unnecessarily punitive. But I agree that it’s hypocritical to know something illegal is going on and do nothing. On the other hand, I think it’s equally hypocritical (if not even more so) to ask a kid to give his life for his country or in all other ways say he is an adult and not allow him or her the legal right to have a beer.</p>
<p>A lot of colleges make agreements with local police to not come onto campus whereas Dartmouth students are really throwing some fits because the police do make arrests, etc. and these offenses go on their permanent records because, duh, they are over 18.</p>
<p>I feel lucky - oh so lucky - at the moment. My daughter hangs with a group of girls who just don’t drink. Alcohol has been no more than a relatively distant blip on the radar at this point. And yes, the girls are quite social and having a great freshman year. Again - at the moment - lucky.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Amen!</p>
<p>I’ve also pondered that my son could marry without my consent and start a family…but not have a beer legally.</p>
<p>NM I hope things improve for your D. I can’t imagine having one of my kids feeling uncomfortable with their living conditions. Hopefully after the season things will get better for her - at least liveable until she can make a change if that is the decision.</p>
<p>My D will go from fall sport into winter sport into spring sport. Ugh. Being a runner she is always “in season”.</p>
<p>This is an interesting discussion, because I’ve wrestled with which arguments to present to my son as he got older & faced the inevitable cultural encouragement to ‘party.’ I’ve researched all the (many) collateral consequences of legal violations re: drinking/substance abuse of various types. Agreed, they can be exceptionally serious — legal consequences are -nothing- to sneeze at and they can last a lifetime.</p>
<p>At the same time, my son (budding lawyer?) argues that certain laws implemented in the past have not been correct (e.g. segregation) as he responds to the ‘don’t do it because it’s illegal’ premise. I just think w/something as serious as the appropriate use of alcohol, all arguments should be marshalled – and to me, the strongest is self-preservation and self-respect.</p>
<p>Thank for the well wishes…truly appreciate my virtual friends! Ok…we’ll see what happens. Now lets move on to something cheery! Anyone having a great day??? ;)</p>
<p>To the budding lawyer: At least in Texas, before one is permitted to take the bar exam, he must be certified as having “moral fitness” to practice law. A felony conviction can hose you, even if you have an outstanding law school record. A student in my class was delayed in taking the bar due to an outstanding warrant because she didn’t show up for a traffic court date. Little legal issues can cause problems for any budding lawyers out there.</p>
<p>I have always tried to frame the argument against drinking as a cultural one where no one should never feel they have to be drinking (or whatever) to have a good time - including adults. My son often used as “excuse” last year that he was driving and frankly, we never really allowed sleepover in high school (with the idea that nothing good could happen after about midnight). Now there’s the thing: While we were very strict, we also had in place a rule that said they could call us anytime, drinking and driving was suicide or murder - sometimes both. Essentially we were saying, don’t drink, but if you do, this is what you do. It is the epitome of talking out of both sides of our mouths.</p>
<p>I think our biggest discussion revolved around peer pressure and never do anything on the basis of a dare or otherwise trying to “fit in.” I can only hope that this is the message that they heard. But I do think our having lots of conversations about how commercials during sporting events, billboards and even magazines sell the lifestyle or fun factor to be more about their money than your good time. </p>
<p>What kind of ticks me off in NMn’s case is there is a coach who has a very direct and effective deterrent at his disposal and chooses not to. As my mother says, the monkey’s are running the zoo. Seems to me that if he benched a player or two, he might get better adherence and healthier players.</p>
<p>NM, are the problem teammates all freshmen? If some are upperclassmen, then I can understand how she would be discouraged.</p>