PhD program questions

I really have only a basic understanding of how PhD programs work. My S is finishing up his second year in a physics PhD program at a school which was not one of this top choices but hey, you go where they want you.

How important is it to have great “soft skills” in grad school? S loves teaching and research, but he has little ability or desire to figure out department politics or to sell himself to professors etc. I don’t expect hand-holding at all, but it seems like he has no support. He wasn’t sure what is Qual exam scores needed to be or whether the ones he took first year had any bearing on his program for example. He seems to have no say in what classes he TAs or does recitations for.

He hasn’t connected with a prof who is doing research in the area he is interested in and is now thinking of taking his masters degree and trying a different path. He knows a physics masters is not really worth much.

Can you transfer PhD programs? I can’t imagine how. If he later wanted to go back and finish, how would that work or does that door close once you leave a program?

I think there are plenty of things he could do and be good at, but I am not sure he is aware of what he can do with his background and skills. Tough to guide him long distance on this.

Background of my answer: my D is currently in 4th yr. of CS PhD program in a state flagship university.

I suggest “The Ph.D Grind” by Philip Guo. Do a search for a free pdf copy.

>> How important is it to have great “soft skills” in grad school?

Like everywhere else in life, it’s important. How does a PhD student get good RA/TA positions? Later on (s)he may have to apply for grant or write grant proposals. Being able to sell oneself is essential.

>> it seems like he has no support.

Does he has an advisor? How is his relationship with the advisor? If the current advisor is too busy, can he find a co-advisor? In my D’s school, PhD students not only are allowed, but are encouraged to have co-advisor.

>> He hasn’t connected with a prof who is doing research in the area he is interested in…

Why not? If he is “finishing up his second year” but hasn’t even started doing research, this is a sign of concern. My D started her research the very first summer as an undergrad, not by asking the professors who taught her classes whether they needed research assistants, but by attending seminars/boot camps and making contact with professors and PhD students in the audience.

>> Can you transfer PhD programs?

From what my D told me, this is difficult. Most “transfers” happen when a professor moves to a new school, bringing his/her advisees with him/her.

My ds is a 1st yr in a physics phd program. Most 1st yrs are not doing research. (Ds is, but his fiancée, also a 1st yr, is not.) The way his program is set up is they TA 1st and 2nd yr and RA starting 3rd yr. Summer between 1st and 2nd yr it seems like the majority are taking some sort of reading research course that helps them determine what sort of research they want to join. Those in experimental fields vs. theoretical seem to be searching for projects now. But, I don’t know if all do research during 2nd yr or not since when he told me about the set up last summer before he started he specifically stated that RA was a 3rd yr goal. My ds lives and breathes research, so for him to pursue it right away was just natural from the day he stepped onto campus.

I’m not sure why your ds doesn’t know about his qual scores and whether or not he passed them. At ds’s program they have 4 exams they need to pass by the end of 2nd yr. (I think that is the deadline.) They get their scores a week or so after taking them, so they should know if they passed. Does he not have any friends in the program? No study groups? No one he can just talk to and ask? This seems like there is a very simple solution to this issue… put effort into asking a friend or someone in the dept and get an answer. If he isn’t willing to do this, is it possible he is depressed b/c that does not seem like an insurmountable hurdle for someone who is fully functioning.

In terms of TAing, his experience sounds typical. I know that ds and his fiancée got to list their preferences, but they weren’t guaranteed. In terms of when they TA, they get stuck where their class time conflicts don’t intersect with other TAs. They can be stuck with pretty awful hours. (I know ds’s hrs las semester were pretty awful. This semester he is head GSI, so he has weeks with nasty hrs and weeks where things are pretty smooth. This is what they are getting paid to do, so it seems like it just comes with the territory.)

Does he have any area of interest? Is anyone at his campus doing research that appeals to him? If so, he should attempt to reach out to them. I don’t get the feeling that grad depts function like smaller UG depts. . It seems like they have to be proactive and actively seek out things themselves. Maybe he could start by just making an appt with a prof whose course he has taken and seeking their advice??? Maybe a prof that he met when he was invited to join their program?

Sorry your ds is struggling. That is so hard. Best wishes to him. I hope he can find someone to talk to before he makes the decision to leave the program. I would really encourage to make that his minimum threshold before he decides to leave the program. He might find out that what he is experiencing is the norm, OK, or at least recoverable.

>> Original post: He wasn’t sure what is Qual exam scores needed to be…
>> Post #1: I’m not sure why your ds doesn’t know about his qual scores and whether or not he passed them.

The way I read the original post, I don’t think the OP’s S has taken the qual exam. He just was not sure what the passing score was.

Of course I can be wrong.

In my D’s school, the result of the qual exam is made known to the student immediately after the exam. Same is true for the prelim exam.

@pentaprism I took it as his having taken the exams since the reference was in past tense “needed to be” vs. “needs to be.” My ds didn’t take any prelim exams. As far as I know (though I could be wrong!!! I don’t understand a lot of what he talks about), his program requires students to take and pass 4 qual exams and I think most students take them 1st yr.

TO be clear, he knows what he got on his Quals but he was unclear about what score he needed. He said you can pass at the masters level and the PhD level. Something that would be easy to ask an adviser but his adviser is not very friendly according to him and dislikes teaching. He feels that all the profs are mostly interested in research. S came from a small LAC where he had great ability to interact with professors and they all seemed to like teaching, one took him under his wing, etc. That has not happened here and I realize it is too much to ask for a grad student but S obviously is oblivious to the networking and political maneuvering one has to do to get noticed.

About research - I am not sure any of his (male) peers are doing this. Due to the availability of generous research fellowships for women in science, all of the male grad students are working 20+ hours a week in TA type positions in addition to their own classroom work. The female peers (and there are only a few) all have fellowships that allow them to do research and they do not need to work at all. It is a source of frustration for him and his friends even though they understand the bigger picture of why this is. I have seen this at other schools with friends’ daughters who are having lots of funding thrown at them and they do not understand why S is working so much.

He does interact with his cohort but most of them are international students for whom English is their second language. I think they are probably a tight group with their friends from home countries and are not real social. S did joke to me that he managed to organize a happy hour for his class and said it was the first time many of them had been in a place other than an academic building all semester.

I do agree a lot of the burden is on him to find a sympathetic professor in the department but that has been hard. The one faculty member he connected with left after his first year.

I also want to talk to him about whether his goals have changed. I know he loves teaching and could easily get a job teaching HS math or physics. He also loves coding and I can see him in some industry jobs too.

Very, very gently…fellowships do not just go females. My ds was offered 3 fellowships that would have allowed him to avoid TAing plus have major additional perks, but he turned them down for the school he attends. There he got your typical grad funding. He wanted this program, so he spends a lot of hours working on TAing/GSI responsibilities on top of his classes. It comes with the territory. By far, most 1st and 2nd yrs are working hard and would be able to relate to your ds.

My ds has said that there is a huge difference in being a grad student vs an undergrad. Advising is very different. It took ds a while to find his feet. I would really encourage your ds to see if he can make the program work if he is at all still interested in physics research. The 1st 2 yrs seems like they are quite different in expectations than the later yrs. Maybe if he can find at least 1 prof to make an appt with it might help. If he doesn’t know who to approach, maybe the secretary in the dept might have a sympathetic ear and be able to point him in the right direction. She could probably tell him the scores for the different programs, too.

Hope he finds the path he wants to take.

I hope @xraymancs will jump in and offer some sage wisdom. He should be able to give you better insight into a dept works and advice on your ds might want to proceed.


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How important is it to have great "soft skills" in grad school?

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They are important but you can get by with a lot less EQ (Emotional Quotient) as long as your research is strong.


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S loves teaching and research

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Congrats! That’s a necessary (but not sufficient) condition of being happy and successful in academia.


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, but he has little ability or desire to figure out department politics or to sell himself to professors etc.

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Comes with experience - if he wants to stay in academia


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I don't expect hand-holding at all, but it seems like he has no support.

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That’s part of the “initiation” routine in many places. My thesis supervisor did not want to read what I wrote until I knew the result was in sight.


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He wasn't sure what is Qual exam scores needed to be or whether the ones he took first year had any bearing on his program for example.

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That’s an oversight, however, few Ph.D. candidates fail their comprehensives - unless the department wants to get rid of them badly.


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He seems to have no say in what classes he TAs or does recitations for.

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You go where the motherland sends you.


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He hasn't connected with a prof who is doing research in the area he is interested in and is now thinking of taking his masters degree and trying a different path.

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That is a major mistake. He needs to do it yesterday or get his Master’s and get out.


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He knows a physics masters is not really worth much.

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No degree is worth anything by itself. It’s what you make of it in the real world.


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Can you transfer PhD programs?

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Yes, but if you are not doing well at University A, you may have a hard time succeeding at University B. Besides, only a small number of credits (6 to 12) are usually transferable between programs.


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I can't imagine how. If he later wanted to go back and finish, how would that work or does that door close once you leave a program?

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You can take a leave of absence for up to a year, I think, however, in most places, you need to finish within 8 years.


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I think there are plenty of things he could do and be good at, but I am not sure he is aware of what he can do with his background and skills. Tough to guide him long distance on this.

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If he is not enthusiastic about finishing his Ph.D., he needs to get a practical skill ASAP (programming, actuarial science, applied statistics etc.).

It is normal to feel discouraged at some point during your Ph.D. program but if you can get over that slump, there are benefits to be had, and not just in academia.

Graduate school, as your son is experiencing, is very different from undergrad. One thing that students - especially students from LACs (including myself) - are sometimes shocked about is the relative distance, if you will, between them and the professors. The professors in graduate departments aren’t the same dedicated teachers and mentors that you often find at an LAC. I’m not saying that graduate professors can’t be warm and caring mentors and advisers, or that they can’t be good teachers. But there’s necessarily a shift in the relationship that they have with graduate students vs. their undergrads - there’s a bigger expectation of independence and self-management.

I know you said that your son is having some difficulties figuring out how to network and maneuver, and I am sympathetic to that (my graduate department had some weird and sometimes toxic politics, and I largely wanted to stay out of it). However…networking and political maneuvering is going to be important in any field he chooses to enter, whether he leaves academia or not. He has to be able to persuade others that he is skilled and competent (aka, “sell” himself) and he needs to be able to interact with social others in ways that will get them to like him, or at least respect him (aka, “politics”). He should not seek to transfer PhD programs because he struggles with that - because any department is going to require that.

For example, is his adviser actively hostile, or simply “not very friendly”? Openly hostile I can see avoiding, but if he’s only not very warm and fuzzy and your son needs something, he definitely needs to ask. With something like the quals question, there are other sources of information - other professors, the Director of Graduate Students, perhaps the student handbook, maybe some advanced doctoral students in the department, potentially the departmental secretary. Did he get a chance to seek out this information from any other source(s)?

Of course, departments range across the scale from ‘warm big happy family’ to ‘dysfunctional black hole of drama’, and some students need to be in one or the other. Advisers and departments also range from more nurturing and developmental all the way to expecting more independence and rewarding that with more freedom. If your son’s program is super hands-off and he needs a more hands-on program, that might be a good reason to seek a ‘transfer.’

In some departments, you do have to ‘sell’ yourself to professors to get a position in their lab, but even if you don’t have to do that, there are so many other things you need to be persuasive for - fellowship applications, grants, secondary projects, authorship on papers, presentations, conference funding, etc. Selling yourself doesn’t have to feel used-car-salesmany, though; it’s really just being confident in your skills and abilities and being able to competently describe your strengths to others.

And yes, the professors are mostly interested in research - that is their bread and butter, the activity from which all their rewards (comepensation, promotion, tenure) flow. The way to really catch a graduate professor’s eye is to excel in research.

PhD students can leave one program and begin another. We often call it ‘transferring,’ but it’s not really in the traditional sense - usually, you end up start over. As someone else mentioned, most PhD programs will take at most about a semesters’ worth of course credit from a previous program. You also need to get at least 1-2 recommendations from people in your current program.

@Mom2aphysicsgeek - Oh I know that women aren’t the sole recipients of fellowships! And I admit I was a little sensitive to this because I got so tired of my mom friends wondering why he didn’t get any fellowships when their daughters were offered more than one. It made me a little defensive.

Having said that, at his school the women have received fellowships and the men did not. Admittedly it is a small program and not one of the top programs either.

@Julliette thank you for your long and informative post. I will have a chance to talk to him more about it shortly. But in our last conversation he made me realize that perhaps it is not just his soft skills that are the issue, there is not a project available in his interest area. There is a new professor he connected with but he cannot take on another student as he brought someone with him. I think S is realizing that he may not want the PhD bad enough to change focus, or perhaps he is really interested in jobs he can get now. Who knows. Thanks for all the insight.

@surfcity - Sorry about getting in so late on the discussion (Real Life…). From your posts, it sounds like your son is not being very aggressive in seeking out a research mentor but it also sounds like the department is not making much effort to make sure he is placed into a research group. It is not clear to me whether he has passed his qualifiers at the MS or PhD level. Can you tell us which it is? It seems strange to me that the department has not informed him explicitly about his status.

If he has passed at the PhD level then he really needs to go talk to faculty and see who has research funding and an opening for a PhD student. When I was the graduate program director for our department, I tried to make sure that all the students were doing this in their second year and certainly after they had passed their qualifiers. It is possible that the department he is in does not fit him very well. In which case, he is best off applying elsewhere.

If he is still enthusiastic about continuing with a PhD, then applying to another program is not out of the question. We see a few students like this in our applicant pool every year. If he is not certain about the PhD, then it is possible that this hesitancy is making him less likely to seek out a research mentor. One thing that I have noticed over the years is that those who are most successful as PhD students are always pushing their advisor for attention and putting a lot of enthusiasm into their research. There are always ups and downs but if he does not have the drive to persevere then perhaps a PhD is not his best choice.

Correlation is not causation. There is an assumption that when ‘all’ or ‘none’ of a group have something in common (gender, ethnicity, whatever), that that is the reason. But- especially in a small program!- that is not necessarily true. The PhD program that my collegekid is in has a 50:50 mix by gender, but it happens the fellowships are skewed - more guys than girls. But: it turns out that the terms of the fellowships are not identical. The thing is the fellowships are a little like merit scholarships in undergrad: the more they want you, the more likely you are to get one / get a good one. When my collegekid was negotiating between offers, the usual 1st year TA requirement was waived to match the offer from another program. And, as you can also see from the other posters, unless your friends whose daughters all have fellowships are in the exact same program, it is not necessarily a relevant comparison.

Of course, I can appreciate that it is tough when it happens that everybody you know has a daughter with a good fellowship, and your own son does not! And even more, it is agonizing to see your young adult child struggling. I’m sorry- for you, and for him.

@xraymancs Thanks for your post. I think you identified some relevant points. I need to talk to him to find out whether he is losing interest in the PhD because he can’t find a mentor/project or if he is not working too hard to find a project because he is not as interesting in staying for 3+ more years.

@collegemom3717 I absolutely agree about correlation. I really hesitated to even bring up that point. The daughters are not at his school, but they are in the same branch of physics that he is interested in and another one is in nanotechnology engineering.

While it’s no fun to have a plot twist :wink: for me, he is young and that is what this part of life is for, to figure out what you want to do. I also think he does not care for the geographic area he is in and he realizes that if he were to pursue academia, he would have to go where the jobs are and maybe that tradeoff is not worth it to him when he can also be happy using his skills in industry.

The passing qua score at my kid’s school varies each semester, so they don’t know til after the exam what their score was and if it was sufficient to pass. My kid’s advisor told her. Also, my kid’s school had 2 quals - a classical and a modern physics qual. She had to pass both to move on to research, along with getting all her masters classes completed.

My kid picked a lab her first year and was able to research there for pay last summer. She’s been volunteering there ~10 hours/week this year while finishing her TAing and classes this semester. But her research hasn’t really started for her thesis. She’s been more learning the ropes and supporting the staff scientists. I think maybe there is a possible area for her thesis, but except for reading papers she hadn’t done much in it. So… I don’t think your son is really far behind at this point if he wants a PhD.

What he needs to do is start meeting with profs right now to find a lab. They aren’t going to come find him! His advisor maybe can help him come up with a list. He might need to TA this summer - it could be late to find a funded spot this summer. But hopefully he can find one for the fall at his current school.

At my kid’s school you can’t just leave with a masters when your classes are done. If you want to “master out”, you have to write a masters thesis - they will usually fund you for an extra semester to complete that, at least at her school. Even if you get a masters, it is no guarantee that another program won’t make him repeat the masters classes and quals at their school. It happened to more than one student in my kid’s incoming PhD group (they had a masters from somewhere else, didn’t pass the qual on first attempt, and had to repeat all the masters coursework). So if he wants the PhD, he should try to make it work at this school if possible.

My kid has found older students to be a valuable source of info and advice.

Now… even with no missteps, stuff can happen. My kid’s lab made a misstep in applying for a grant, and has no funding for students this summer in a few of the school’s labs (including some students farther in their degrees than she is). Next fall is in some doubt, too. She probably can TA and volunteer in the lab this summer, so plans to do so. She’ll look for another lab at her school if there is no fall funding. She’s been talking to her undergrad advisor for advice, too. That could be another source of info for your son as he decides what to do. Good luck!

I encourage him to trust his gut and explore this more, perhaps with the aid of a counselor at the university (his health insurance almost certainly covers one). It’s way easier to leave earlier in the program than it is to leave later, when the psychological weight of having invested so much time and energy into the degree weighs heavy on a lot of doctoral candidates. There is a wonderful world with so many different jobs and opportunities out there that will suit him just as well as, if not much better than, a career in academia. He could even take a leave of absence to take a job - that will leave him the flexibility to return if he wishes. It feels less final, which makes it easier for people to take the break.

I say this as a person who did end up finishing my doctoral degree after much angst BUT probably would’ve been perfectly happy had I never started it. I’m not cut out for an academic career. I don’t mean that in a derogatory way for myself - I mean my personality and desires just don’t fit with an academic lifestyle. Much like your son, I realized I did not want to live in small, rural areas for much of my life. There were other reasons too. I found much happiness outside of academia, and I am on a team of about 30 people who also exited academia and found happiness outside, and I have many colleagues across multiple fields who did the same. It can be a bit scary at first but can be incredibly relieving and rewarding once the decision is made.

And maybe it is in his best interests to stay and finish up and pursue an academic career. I don’t know! But he should definitely probe it more deeply and find out.

Despite what some professors say or imply by their actions and attitudes, there is no shame in starting a PhD and deciding after a year or two (or more) that it’s not the right path for you. I would guess about 95% of my peers in grad school contemplated leaving with a MS or questioned if they could really finish a PhD they could be proud of.

Grad school can be lonely, intimidating, discouraging, and humbling and these feelings can seem to last forever with no way out but to leave grad school. Just be supportive of your son and encourage him to find what he enjoys both academically and otherwise. He should get to know what’s available outside academia that interests him too. And if there’s something else he would rather do or a different direction that’s going to sustain him better he should seriously consider them. Peers from my class who left with MSs are scattered all over having successful careers in everything from university administration to data science to film making.

I don’t regret getting my PhD at all, but during the process I often wondered if I was just sticking around because of the sunk cost. It’s normal for grad school to be a time of extreme self-reflection.

Like juillet I decided academia was not for me. But I found that out later… my PhD days were pretty encouraging and enjoyable overall, and the joys greatly outweighed the many shadowy periods to the point that I hardly remember those stressful times anymore. I still do fundamental research, but in a non-academic environment that is less ego-driven.

“Advisers and departments also range from more nurturing and developmental all the way to expecting more independence and rewarding that with more freedom. If your son’s program is super hands-off and he needs a more hands-on program, that might be a good reason to seek a 'transfer.”

Thanks for your response to this post, Juillet. I'm also concerned for my daughter's transition from a LAC to a university for PhD studies in the sciences. Though she's "fairly" independent, I believe she'll thrive in a program which begins with a more nurturing and developmental bent, as she transitions to the independence required of a seasoned graduate student.  She's now finishing up her junior year, and really has to get to work finding departments that not only involve research in her preferred area, but are also encouraging and supportive.  

How does one go about doing this? Her undergraduate advisor has been terrific supporting her with meaningful and inspiring research, and is telling her she has the the research experience to attend the most desirable programs. But her professor has directed her to schools in the South, which does not interest my daughter. She wants to remain closer to home in the NE, which fortunately has many options for great schools and programs. Since her advisor isn’t directing her to labs in the NE, how does my daughter go about getting the info she needs to apply to schools with the most supportive programs in her choice geographic areas?

Most PhD students anymore should NOT be planning on a career in academia. It has become as secure a career path as being an artist.

But in physics world there are many many jobs for which a PhD is the entry pass, both in physics research and in physics-adjacent areas.

Maybe her advisor is trying to tell her something: the NE is not known for nurturing & supportive PhD programs!

Perhaps she should work in a Lab job for a year or two after graduation. Top PhD programs – many of which are in your/her geo preference area – will not be concerned about ‘transitions’. They expect their students to hit the ground running in year 1.