From Stanford:
At Stanford, we are committed to providing a comprehensive need-based financial aid program that makes it financially possible for admitted students to attend. Our admission program is need-blind, meaning, for all but some international applicants, financial status will not affect the admission decision
Stanford is not totally need blind for international students.
These schools are both need blind and meet full need for all accepted international students.
Why do you need to come to the U.S. for undergraduate school. Please explain.
Yes, thatâs what I said.
I would tend to agree if you are talking about large public universities in the US.
High numbers Canadians looking for a small-college-to-medium-university experience might have reason to look more broadly in the US, including because they might be able to qualify for a combination of need and/or merit aid that would make some options more competitive cost-wise than the typical OOS public COA.
But it looks like the OP is mostly thinking about large research universities, in which case I agree the list of US colleges competitive with their Canadian options in that area with cost as a factor is going to be very limited.
@StandCool you probably already know this, but just in case you donât, USA-folk use âcollegeâ and âuniversityâ (mostly) interchangeably, so donât read into any comments from posts in this thread referring to college ⊠just mentally replace that with university.
(For Americans who donât know, (as I understand it) the word âcollegeâ in Canada is mostly used to describe community college, whereas the four-year undergraduate experience we all know as âcollegeâ is only called âuniversityâ by Canadians. Maybe thatâs not a universal thing; all I know is that when Iâve been making conversation with Canadians and accidentally asked where they went to college, Iâve gotten some haughty âwell, I went to university at âŠâ replies.)
I sincerely appreciate all the thoughtful and detailed advice. Itâs been very helpful. I took note of the school names you mentioned, and Iâll reconsider the financial impact on my parents. I realize I shouldnât take their lifelong savings for granted.
As for why Iâm inclined towards US schools, Iâve already taken several university courses (though I wonât disclose the universityâs name here), and what struck me were the class sizes. Initially, all classes start with a group of 180-200 students. As the weeks passed, those numbers would dwindle. The more challenging math courses would shrink to around 50-60 students, while the easier subjects like history and humanities remained consistently large.
Even 50 students in a math class is too big when weâre flying through 4 to 5 theorems in one lecture. Except for one course called Real Analysis. Initially, there were 9 of us enrolled, but over time, it dwindled down to just 3 students. We three students circled closely with the professor during lecture hours. Each of us had enough time to ask questions and present our thoughts. That course was the only one where I truly learned something beyond what I could self-learn from videos and textbooks. Unfortunately, due to budget constraints, this course will be chopped in the next semester.
I heard from a freshman at UPenn about her experience in a calculus class. With just 12 students, supported by five TAs plus the professor, she got her questions answered within the same day of the lecture. I am so envious.
I began on the self-study road since junior high school. Not because I prefer it, but because I had to seek other sources for truth when the science teachers misunderstood fundamental concepts. For instance, in grade 8, I was taught that âbuoyant force was directly proportional to the subjectâs surface area.â Besides free eDX and YouTube, I discovered that College Boardâs Daily Course Videos are free to access as long as I registered for the AP exams. The exam fee is CAD$180 per course. For a school yearâs worth of content, it is truly affordable.
The approach of self-study from YouTube, eDX, and textbooks is full of struggles and had left concept holes, and thus it is not sustainable for advanced courses. I think that a big-class-size lecture is equivalent to YouTube videos. After experiencing the 3-to-1 class of Real Analysis, I love the discussions with the professor, who is so enlightening. Seeking smaller class sizes is the main motivation for me to look at US schools.
Why Iâm also considering UC schools. Despite their public status and larger class sizes, the concentration of intelligent individuals and startup opportunities in their vicinity could provide alternative paths for learning, through like-peers, internships, and part-time jobs.
Those are my preliminary thoughts on university options. Thanks once again for your insights.
Well - you have UCLA on your list.
Class 32A Calculus of Several Variables has 210 in class.
33 Differential equations has 210 in class.
Other classes like Linear Algebra 40.
But donât conflate rank or perceived pedigree with class size, etc.
You might do this for every school - but honestly, first things first, you need a budget and to find schools to meet said budget.
OK - I see you addressed the UCs - Despite their public status and larger class sizes, the concentration of intelligent individuals and startup opportunities in their vicinity could provide alternative paths for learning, through like-peers, internships, and part-time jobsâŠ
No offense, thatâs sort of - silly. That can be had at most every flagship. Start up mentality will be different in many places - but you can have top peers at many schools and find part time jobs anywhere (if theyâre allowed given your international status.
Iâm throwing out U of Alabama because it will be less than half of a UC. It has the most listed National Merit Scholars in the country. So you think the kids arenât smart? Or U of Arizona, which for US out of state students, gives $32K off for a 4.0 - you donât think they donât have brilliant kids?
Today, a lot of the big flagships supplement with Honors Colleges and other enrichment to assure the over qualified are with a suitable cohort.
In the end, budget has to drive decisions and the UCs would be a disaster for you - but there are âlikeâ colleges without the pedigree - and research can be done anywhere and jobs found anywhere (assuming your status). And if you have the âitâ factor, you can find folks interested in business start ups to partner with.
Good luck.
Search results for: 2024, Spring, Mathematics (MATH) | UCLA Registrarâs Office
If you want small classes with highly engaged professors and smart students who really care about academics, you might want to check out Liberal Arts Colleges, which notwithstanding the name are typically good for natural sciences and math as well. They often also provide great support for experience opportunities.
Edit: You might be interested in checking out these PhD feeder lists for Chemistry and Math, particularly the per capita ones on the right side. These should be taken with all sorts of caveats and I would not use them to strictly rank colleges.
But they can generate some ideas about colleges, sometimes not as well known colleges, that have the sort of student-professor relationships and other departmental support generally necessary for regular PhD placements. And in fact, one of the caveats is these lists are not controlled for self-selection, but for that very reason they sort of serve as measures of where you might find other academicky kids (even if they do not ultimately choose to pursue a PhD).
OK, so first, Chemistry:
Lots of smaller colleges high on this list, which is because Chemistry is a classic LAC subject and is not super subject to scale issues. Caltech and Harvey Mudd are for sure two you should take a look at if you really want a STEM-focused small college in Californiaâif they are affoerdable. But if you are looking for a broader (and frankly less intense) experience, lots of other colleges could work.
And then there IS the money issue. If need aid can get you on budget, great, but colleges like Wooster or Kalamazoo may actually give you a lot of merit aid too.
OK, then Math:
Caltech and Harvey Mudd again, and colleges like Carleton, Grinnell, Haverford, and Swarthmore are high on both. Kalamazoo and Wooster did not make the top 50 in Math, but if you start poking around you will see that, say, St Olaf is on both lists.
And St Olaf is a real forum favorite, including because it has so many strong departments, but also because it offers merit, AND is in a very nice college town it shares with Carleton, AND because it is close to Minneapolis-St Paul which is a great city with a large international airport.
So, if you were interested in a small college experience in the US but these other places were unaffordable, maybe St Olaf would be an option.
Just an example, but something to think about.
If you want to be surrounded by the highest %age of NMSF at a college, you might want to look at University of Tulsa. Not sure it will be affordable. 25% or so of their incoming class are NMSF.
You claim to want smaller classes? None of these colleges will have 20 or less kids in lower level classes.
I doubt if a freshman calculus class at Penn has 12 students and 5 TAâs. That student was likely referring to a weekly discussion section to supplement the large lectures.
Yes, they have the highest composition - but I was trying to show a financial example. The Bama merit international - same as OOS. And itâs a large flagship - like the UCs.
Here is what Tulsa shows (linked below) - certainly worth a look. It does appear there are some funds for international but not necessarily as much as the NMS get (the full ride). Itâs worth a look.
There was a thread last year you all may remember - a student was stuck at Washington State - and thatâs not really stuck - because it was free or free tuition. He got turned down everywhere else or couldnât afford anywhere else.
We all suggested Tulsa and the president came on to help as he sometimes does.
The student was a math major but ultimately did not apply there due to the math curriculum not being robust.
So I guess the point here is any LAC you look at - and yes, many will provided strong merit - but you do need to look at the depth of curriculum in those schools.
But yes, thatâs a good suggestion and one to check out (Tulsa) - I linked the international aid below.
International Scholarships - The University of Tulsa (utulsa.edu)
There is indeed a significant advantage to having smaller classes.
One thing to consider would be the âliberal arts collegesâ (LACs) in the US. In my area of the woods (the northeast of the US) Amherst, Bowdoin, Colby, and Williams College are all very good. Williams is very good for mathematics. I am not sure how they are for chemistry but chemistry does strike me as a major that is available at many schools. You will need to check which of these meet full need for international students. I think that Williams College both meets full need and is need blind for international students (if I am remembering correctly, I am a bit nervous after my slip up with Stanford in my earlier message).
In Canada, you might want to consider the small âprimarily undergraduate universitiesâ. We are more familiar with the ones in the northeast, and particularly (in alphabetic order) Acadia, Bishopâs, Mount Allison, and St Francis Xavier. We visited all four of these after a daughter was accepted to all four, and had trouble deciding between them since we (and she) liked all of them. U. PEI might also be worth considering. My understanding is that there are a few smaller universities in Ontario but we did not look at them partly because they are further away for us, and partly because at least two of them (Lakehead and Laurentian) are pretty far north for us. Brock seems to be in a less isolated location but I do not know much about it. Further west the University of Lethbridge and The University of Northern British Columbia (in Prince George) have good reputations but are a long way from Ontario and even further from us.
Attending one of these universities, the largest class that my daughter ever had was freshman year âbiology for biology majorsâ which had 90 students. First semester freshman year she had two classes with 15 or fewer students. I do not think that class size was an issue. She also got to know her professors, which helped her get internships and research opportunities. After graduating and a bit of travel she returned to the US and had three job offers in five weeks, and she is now set to start her PhD at a very good university in the US later this year. Basically getting a bachelorâs degree at a small university in Canada has worked out well in spite of the fact that there are very few people down here in the US who have ever heard of the university that she attended for her bachelorâs degree.
Just to add regarding class sizes at highly ranked universities in the US: The largest class that I had over four years at MIT was freshman year physics. Basically it had half of the entire MIT freshman class, which at the time would have been a bit more than 500 students. It would be only marginally larger today (the largest classroom at MIT has a capacity of 566). As a graduate student at Stanford I had at least one class where the students could not all fit into one room so there was a live TV broadcast of the class in a second class room. Fortunately I had a gap between classes right before this class so I was always able to get into the room that had the professor in it and sit near the front (this was stochastic processes so sitting near the front and always paying attention was very highly desirable).
If youâre referring to on-campus jobs (in the cafeteria, library, help desk, etc) you can get these at any school, but they will not pay enough to cover your cost of attendance. For example: if you work a $15/hour job for 20 hours a week in a 16 week semester, youâll earn $4,800.
Or are you thinking of part time jobs at companies, where you can precisely earn more? If yes, you may have missed earlier posts about this.
Your application list needs to be driven by affordability. I believe you should have four categories of colleges in your list:
Of course, you should have reliable backups in Canada that youâd be happy to attend if the US does not work out.
However, if the OP is taking real analysis in high school, an undergraduate only liberal arts college may not have sufficient upper level and graduate level math courses. The OP should check the math offerings of any school under consideration.
It seems the combination of advanced math (real analysis) and a wish for small classes may make Harvey Mudd and Northwesternâs special math pathway for advanced students especially worth investigating.
Further, undergraduate colleges that allow students to take graduate level classes - perhaps through the Honors College, which may open Jr/sr classes to freshmen and Graduate courses to jr/sr, may be worth checking out. Not all Honors Colleges do that so OP would need to check for each Honors college/university.
I was actually talking to someone about this the other day and he said usually the top LACs for their top Math students, the ones on the way to PhD programs and such, will just allow you to take multiple classes that are labeled some sort of Advanced Topics/Directed Study/Independent Study sort of course where a professor and a very small number of such students do stuff that interests them.
I have no personal opinion on whether that is an adequate answer, and of course it is going to be an interesting challenge how to investigate that. I think you would probably want to try to talk to such PhD-bound Math students, and ideally professors, to see what they say, and you might want to look at professor bios and such.
nvm
I agree with @DadOfJerseyGirl that finding jobs on campus typically involve positions at the library, campus departments, and cafeteria help. They typically have cafeteria jobs.
If youâre talking off-campus jobs, these will Include more of the same fast food jobs. Startups? Uh no, because these will more likely be a volunteer position. (Ask my son.) Their monies come from investors and they are harder to find. They canât afford to pay you; itâs for the experience. You will be volunteering your time and not getting paid. Plus, from what I understand, itâs done online so you can do that from Canada.
For California, and the UCs, the large corporations are not really near the vicinity of any particular UCs, so you need a car. (Maybe UCSD or UC Irvine but thatâs a heck of a lot of biking.)
Maybe because you havenât been to California(?) you donât understand that our public transportation, in most of California, is awful. Buses and transportation donât go to a lot of places where the businesses are located. Save up for a lot of Uber rides.
With the exception of San Francisco and parts of the Bay Area, youâll be sitting in a car, in traffic.
Internships are very competitive and visa issues are considered at some of these corporations. As someone said previously, an internship is a âtryoutâ for the company to see if they may hire you. As a Canadian citizen, you may struggle because of visa issues. A number of companies donât sponsor international students. You can get an OPT (optical training year) but students usually save that for after graduation.
Youâve made a lot of erroneous assumptions and have created this idealized world about what the UCâs and what California will provide for you, but some of your thoughts donât coincide with reality.
California is expensive. Maintenance on a car along with the cost of Gasoline is expensive. The UCs are going to run you about $75,000 a year. Thatâs not including the incidentals for living in California.
You wonât get any funding from California schools since the State of California pays through taxpayer money for their public universities.
It just seems to me that sacrificing your parents financial futures, hoping that things âfall into placeâ after year two, isnât a very intelligent way to approach admissions to a US university.
Find a LAC that will fund you. Apply everywhere for financial aid, if you will need it for years 2, 3, and 4.
Donât forget that you will need to budget yearly for the incidental costs of travel, US medical insurance (not cheap) and dorm/room/apartment supplies.
A number of universities cannot guarantee housing for all four years. This especially includes the UCâs. So you have a lot of things to think about.
Donât make up idealistic scenarios that you think exist. And whatever you do, donât use up your parents financial security; itâs just not worth it.
OP should be aware he cannot take off campus jobs in his first year. After the first year he can work off campus only after receiving curricular practical training (CPT) or optional practical training (OPT) authorization, and this will only be granted for jobs directly related to his major and which, in the opinion of the university, enhance his learning through practical experience.
He cannot simply work when and where he pleases, like students who are U.S. citizens and PRs. The rules for off-campus jobs also apply to remote/online jobs.