Pope Francis

Parent Cafe
101

<p>*^^ (#96) Is that to say that a divorced Catholic who has remarried is in a state of mortal sin?
*</p>

<p>That person isn’t considered married in the eyes of the Church. The same would be if a first-time married Catholic married outside of the Church. </p>

<p>*
Or a gay person in a committed relationship? Wasn’t aware of that phraseology.
*</p>

<p>Doesn’t matter if a gay or straight person is in a committed relationship. As far as the Church is concerned, there shouldn’t be sexual activity. Again, it doesn’t matter what we all might think about that. That’s the Church’s position. </p>

<p>*</p>

<p>Can somebody explain how it’s possible for these things to vary from parish to parish? I know there are parishes that deny communion to those who are divorced or gay. yet, not all do. Some are more welcoming to gay couples than others. As a non-Catholic, it gets confusing!*</p>

<p>Please tell me the names of these parishes that are denying Communion to people who are merely divorced or gay. Those parishes are in violation of church teaching. It should be obvous to any priest that simply being divorced or being gay isn’t a sin. After all, a very good person could have a spouse file for divorce. The “good person” may not even want the divorce, and can’t stop it. Or, the divorced person had to leave the spouse because of abuse. Even the catechism states that divorce is sometimes necessary to legally require support for the children, to get away from an abusive situation, etc. </p>

<p>And these parishes would be wrong if they were denying Communion to some person who thinks he/she is gay. Just knowing one is gay is not a sin. Again, if I woke up this morning and realized, aha, I’m gay, I haven’t committed a sin.</p>

102

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<p>Catholics are not monolithic, even among parish priests. I know a lot of Catholics go church hopping, until they find one that suits them.</p>

103

<p>*When I got divorced and subsequently remarried, I chose to go to the Presbyterian church rather than having my first marriage annulled. I know I did not have the maturational level to marry the first time, I even tried to back out several times before the wedding day, but each time, I was talked into going through with the ceremony. In my heart of hearts, however, that sounded a lot like excuse making, so having my marriage annulled seemed disingenuous at best. *</p>

<p>Disingenuous? Why? You’re an example of what many annulments are based on…immaturity. Why would that be disingenous. It would be disingenous if you had lied and pretended that you had been immature when truthfully you were not. But, you’re a good example of what annulments are for. </p>

<p>I should have added that as one of the above examples because it’s very common. One or both of the engaged are too immature for marriage. Another common reason is “pressured” to marry because of pregnancy.</p>

<p>I know someone whose marriage was annulled because she felt pressured to marry when her parents moved OOS. Her parents didn’t want her to remain behind (and possibly move in with her BF), so she was pressured to marry. That wasn’t a hard annulment to get. </p>

<p>Catholics are not monolithic, even among parish priests. I know a lot of Catholics go church hopping, until they find one that suits them.</p>

<p>True…and priests do have some leeway, but they aren’t supposed to just make up rules or violate church laws. They are allowed to only have male altar servers. They have that right to restrict in that area. But, their leeway isn’t carte blanche. Denying the sacraments is rather defined.</p>

104

<p>Mom2colleges,
I understand how an annulment works. My point was that it bothers me that a gay couple in a loving relationship, who have a strong Catholic faith cannot receive the sacrament of marriage. And when I say marriage, I mean marry each other. Living as a Catholic is being denied them because they choose to live authentically in their sexuality. A sexuality that was not of their choosing.</p>

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<p>If the Eucharist was denied to all that are in a state of mortal sin, there would be very few people walking that aisle on Sunday. The Eucharist is denied to those that are KNOWN to be in mortal sin. It is really up to the sinner to acknowledge the sin, go to confession, and then feel free to receive communion.
Thing is, I don’t know one single Catholic that goes to confession on a regular basis but I know lots of them who are sexually active outside of marriage. They don’t hesitate to take communion. That’s just one example of, what I feel is a breakdown of the Catholic myth. How many Catholics use birth control? Most, I’m guessing.</p>

<p>I just don’t feel (and this is my own personal belief, so no offense intended) that any of that is God’s will. I think it is the will of the church. Nor do I think that God gives a rat’s a** whether the inside of a church is nicely decorated or not.</p>

105

<p>I think many people don’t want to come back to Church, or they despise Catholics because they think we’re all anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-birth control. Believe me, we are not. And that does not make us Bad Catholics.</p>

<p>My post was merely to point out that if you hold those beliefs, you aren’t going to be barred from attending Mass and receiving Communion.</p>

<p>It’s not like the vampire movies, where your hand will burn if you touch the Church door, or your mouth will burn if you receive Communion.</p>

<p>If you believe in the basic teachings of the Catholic Church, I don’t see why you shouldn’t attend Mass and receive Communion. Everyone should be free to practice their religion, whether they hold the same, what I believe, to be political beliefs of the more vocal Catholic population.</p>

<p>It really upset me to see my aunts and uncles leave the Church in the sixties and seventies because of their divorces. It turned out well for them. They joined other churches, and are very happy there, and have even become clergy in their parishes. Perhaps back then, it would have been better for them to find another parish. </p>

<p>Indeed,some people do go parish hopping. And many join “sects” of the Catholic Church, and even leave the Catholic Church, and then come back. I have a relative who was raised Catholic, went all the way through Catholic college, joined the Charismatic movement, later went back to being a “regular Catholic”, several years later joined a Protestant Church, and is now back to being a regular Catholic. I think it was a matter of finding the right parish. </p>

<p>You guys think getting a new Pope is a big deal? You ain’t seen nothing until you get a new pastor. We had a wonderful pastor for years. He was not liked by the older group, who loved the older pastor who had died. I’m glad I wasn’t at my parish when the old pastor was there, sounded like a tyrant. Our pastor, who we lost to liver cancer two years ago, was an admitted alcoholic, obese, smoked, and not very present in the classroom, but many of us in the parish loved him. Perhaps we loved him so much because he shared our faults. </p>

<p>Now, we’ve got a new pastor, a monsignor, and an Irish one at that. Holy moly, the outcry! He wanted to come into everyone’s home. No indeed! I think only about 10 percent, mostly the older crowd, complied with that request. Most of the parents were ready to run him out on a rail. </p>

<p>But you know what, we love him now. Bless his heart, he tries to make a joke. He loves the children. He is very present in the classroom. He still tries to get us to join different groups, but he’s not so pushy now. He invites Irish performers monthly to our church for us to enjoy. If we go, great. If not, no problem. I’m sure many left our parish because they did not want something new, or were afraid of change, but as with anything in life, you adapt to something new and try to look at the positive and not dwell on the negative.</p>

<p>Now, I’m going to stop, because I forgot my Southern upbringing, where we’re told it’s not polite to discuss politics and religion.</p>

106

<p>*If the Eucharist was denied to all that are in a state of mortal sin, there would be very few people walking that aisle on Sunday. The Eucharist is denied to those that are KNOWN to be in mortal sin. It is really up to the sinner to acknowledge the sin, go to confession, and then feel free to receive communion.</p>

<p>Thing is, I don’t know one single Catholic that goes to confession on a regular basis but I know lots of them who are sexually active outside of marriage. They don’t hesitate to take communion. That’s just one example of, what I feel is a breakdown of the Catholic myth. How many Catholics use birth control? Most, I’m guessing.*</p>

<p>Private sin is just that. Private. As long as its not publicly known, what can a priest do? He has to assume that those who come up for Communion are in a state of grace. As you say, in such circumstances of serious sin the person should go to Confession. During Mass, people are asked to think about their sins. </p>

<p>Public sin is different because - well - obviously it’s known to others and can be a horrible role model. Imagine these two scenarios:</p>

<p>1) Married man is an active leader in the Church, receives Communion regularly. No one knows that he’s got some GF on the side. What he’s doing is very, very wrong, but no one in the Church is scandalized by his horrid behavior because it’s unknown. His priest, his wife, his family, his friends have no idea. He’s wrong for being a hypocrite, etc, but no one is going to tell him he can’t go to Communion because his behavior is unknown. </p>

<p>But!!! If his behavior was exposed, and he didn’t repent and clean up his act, then obviously he would be denied the sacraments. </p>

<p>2) Man is a known “player”. Bedding different women each week. (ugh) Everyone know this. He comes to Mass and received Communion. Everyone is scandalized! The priest SHOULD privately contact him and find out if he’s given up his sinful ways. If he has, good! Confess and go forth. If he has little to no intention of cleaning up his act, then the priest needs to tell him that he can’t come up for Communion. </p>

<p>Scandal (a word used in the Church to mean something a bit different) is always an issue. When someone who publicly sins (a known abortionist, a known active philanderer, etc) comes up for Communion each week and the Church does “nothing” about it, it sends a very bad message to those in the pew. </p>

<p>Think of your own family. IF your oldest child gets drunk frequently and you continue to give him the keys to the famly car, you are scandalizing the younger ones. They are going to think that that behavior is ok, and may begin doing the same thing. However, if you have no idea that your oldest child is getting drunk, why should you be criticized for giving him the keys?</p>

107

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<p>See. I disagree. If you are truly a Catholic, you are anti-abortion. I don’t think you can be pro-choice and be a Catholic. Not really. Does it make you a bad person to be pro-choice? Not in my opinion but I do think it makes you a bad Catholic. That’s that whole pesky cafeteria thing I’ve been talking about. </p>

<p>Think of it this way. You belong to a country club that won’t allow blacks to join. You personally are not a bigot. Some of your best friends are black. But you belong to the country club anyway.</p>

<p>Why not just join a different country club?</p>

108

<p>Do some of you really attend Mass where the Eucharist is denied? I have never seen that. We are mid-point, attend two different churches, and another on occasion. One holds 400-500 people. ~95% of those attending receive the Eucharist. Using average divorce, remarriage, and annulment rates, aren’t there many people going up when the Church says they should not? (they are receiving Communion, not a blessing)</p>

109

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<p>I guess I would hope that the sin thing should be more about the issue of right and wrong and between a person and God than about what message is sent at Sunday mass. I guess I would understand your point if I thought that the church wants it’s communicants to avoid sins so that they set a good example for others. I try to avoid doing wrong because, well, it’s wrong and usually hurts someone.</p>

<p>My point was that the people receiving communion are making a choice, when they go to communion, to receive, even at times when they know they have committed what the church would define as a sin. So what is the point? I’m trying to understand why some people remain in the church. When many, if not most are picking and choosing what parts they will live by and what parts they won’t.</p>

110

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<p>Explain how you can be a pro-choice, pro-marriage equality, and pro-birth control Catholic. It’s apparently against the Church. Sorry, but that makes zero sense. </p>

<p>Either you believe in the teachings of the Catholic church or you don’t. I don’t care either way, but you can’t proclaim to believe in anti-Catholic beliefs and still be a “good Catholic”. It doesn’t seem to work that way.</p>

111

<p>Do some of you really attend Mass where the Eucharist is denied? I have never seen that. We are mid-point, attend two different churches, and another on occasion. One holds 400-500 people. ~95% of those attending receive the Eucharist. Using average divorce, remarriage, and annulment rates, aren’t there many people going up when the Church says they should not? (they are receiving Communion, not a blessing)</p>

<p>Yes, there likely are people receiving Communion that should not. But priests are not mind-readers, so unless the “serious sin” is outwardly known and ongoing, a priest isn’t going to do a thing. And, frankly, if a priest does contact someone, unless THAT person tells others that he’s been told to refrain, you’d never know that he’d been told. Right?</p>

<p>95% at your church are receiving Communion? That’s kind of unbelievable. For one thing, many Catholics are married to non-Caths, so the non-Caths aren’t receiving. They may be going up, but just getting a blessing. </p>

<p>Frankly, it’s the non-Caths receiving that often the priest knows about. Then the person is politely contacted, asked if they want to come into the Church. If the person declines, then the person is likely told not to receive, but come up for the blessing.</p>

112

<p>Romani, as a non catholic,it seems to me that you can be pro birth control, pro gay marriage, whatever, and still be Catholic as long as you don’t acton those opinions. Why you would want to is another story, but I think someone could value faith or community above those things and remain Catholic.</p>

113

<p>I guess I just can’t wrap my mind around that, ZM. I can see being Christian and being pro those things but I just can’t understand how you can fundamentally disagree with your religion and still claim to adhere to that religion. </p>

<p>I guess it’s just something I “don’t get”.</p>

<p>Or maybe it’s more of the fact that I don’t understand why you’d WANT to belong to a church that you fundamentally disagree with. </p>

<p>Argh my brain hurts a bit now.</p>

114

<p>Romani,That’s how I feel, as well. Why would you? Other than tradition, family pressure, etc. It seems hypocritical to me and I can’t help but feel it does others harm. One of the reasons that I finally made the move to leave the church was for my children.<br>
When I got married, I promised to raise them in the church. We went to church, did the Holy Communion thing, etc. By the time they got to the age of Confirmation, they were old enough to see my ambivalence about my faith. It was pretty clear. Of course the sex abuse scandal was in full swing so that didn’t help matters at all. There were times when I had all I could do to stay seated in the pew on Sunday and not go running from the place or stand up and shout the speaker down about the bull I was hearing.<br>
My girls chose to get confirmed and after that, that was it for me. I felt that I had fulfilled my promise to raise them in the church to that point. I was done.
I wanted this for myself but also so that my children could see that it was important to honor yourself over your upraising. That living authentically was more important than following something blindly. My children no longer go to church. I don’t blame myself for that and I don’t give myself credit for it either :slight_smile: They will find what they need when they need it. They are good people with strong moral convictions. That’s good enough for me.</p>

115

<p>EPTR- I see things the same way you do.</p>

116

<p>Maybe we could start a religion :slight_smile: We already have some good t-shirt ideas!</p>

117

<p>My niece, a non-Catholic, attended Mass quite regularly when she was away at college and always took communion. She thought it was between her and God, said nobody knew she wasn’t Catholic and she liked the time of Mass better than her own church. Frankly, I think she’s on to something! </p>

<p>Are Catholics offended when those of other faiths partake of communion at weddings, funerals, etc.</p>

118

<p>^ Not sure about offended but it is a big no-no (see post 111).</p>

119

<p>At weddings and funerals the priests will remind everyone that those of other faiths are welcome to come up for the blessing (not communion).</p>

<p>mom2college–you don’t have to believe me when I say 95% go up for communion, and I specifically noted communion, not a blessing. I can count; I’m a CPA. Sometimes I can even do it without a calculator :)</p>

<p>I was specifically addressing remarried Catholics whose first marriage was not annulled. That would be a “sin” not easily private and hidden.</p>

120

<p>Are Catholics offended when those of other faiths partake of communion at weddings, funerals, etc</p>

<p>It is a “no no,” and at such functions priests are really supposed to say something before Communion to explain that non-Caths not supposed to receive, but they’re welcome to come up for a blessing. It’s not unusual for a priest to make these announcements at funerals and weddings when a large number of non-Caths would be attending. </p>

<p>As for other Catholics being offended…most in the pews would not know who is Catholic and who isn’t. And, it’s not like everyone is “taking notice” of what every person is doing during Communion time. It’s a prayerful time, not one when everyone is eyeballing the communicants. </p>

<p>However, like I mentioned above, if some well-known active philanderer went up to Communion, then likely a number of people in the pew would notice. And then later, a few would likely say something to the parish priest. </p>

<p>I remember when my kids were in Catholic K-8. There was a 22 year old male aide who just had his second child out of wedlock (different mothers and no one knew about this baby or the other child). But, he brought Baby #2 to the classroom to show off the baby and it was a problem because the children knew that he wasn’t married. </p>

<p>I remember being in the school parking lot a couple of days later and I wondered why our normally quiet senior-citizen pastor came nearly running out of the church office and headed to the school office. Later I heard that a parent had called and complained and the pastor was quite upset to have his young school kids scandalized by having a “person of authority” broadcasting about the birth of this child out of wedlock to young kids. (Often employees at Catholic schools sign a morals clause.).<br>
If he had been an employee working with only adults, it wouldn’t have been a big deal.</p>

<p>Now, I know that none of us adults would be bothered by this, but it’s a problem for a Catholic school of young kids. The aide was “setting a bad example” to young impressionable kids. </p>

<p>I know that some might think this is crazy, but little ones are influenced by what their authority figures do. If a teacher got a DUI, and the kids found out about it, and everyone appeared to be fine with that, then it becomes harder to convince kids that drinking and driving is not a good thing.</p>

<p>*mom2college–you don’t have to believe me when I say 95% go up for communion, and I specifically noted communion, not a blessing. I can count; I’m a CPA. Sometimes I can even do it without a calculator *</p>

<p>lol…it’s just that most Catholic churches are so big that it would be really hard for one person to really be able to see what’s going on in each Communion line. You must have incredible vision and a quick turning neck. ;)</p>