Another vote here for frank disbelief that any middle school child was suspended for three days for an innocent mistake of referring to a male classmate as “he.” On the other hand, I can easily believe that a middle school child was suspended for three days for a second or third incident of maliciously taunting a classmate by using pronouns he knew to be hurtful to the classmate and not to be used under the rules of the class.
Ooops! . . . by using pronouns THEY knew to be hurtful . . .
[Insert winkie thing here]
You pulled one quote from the article. I pulled others. The point is it’s not clear at all. Nor am I trying to instill fear and I’ve heard not one single person here say they will not honor or respect the wish of others. So for you to insinuate something about me because I posted an article that says it is becoming more common place is ridiculous.
“I don’t think it’s a controversial idea that people should be addressed as they prefer to be addressed,” he said. “Where it becomes controversial is where you move from being about good behavior … into a disciplinary matter.”
"But Jane Kirtley, a U professor of media ethics and law, sees the pronoun rule as a risky proposition. “Suppose you slip up and just accidentally use the wrong one. Is that harassment or discrimination?” she asked. “Does everybody get one free pass and after that, it’s harassment?”
"Personally, she said, “I don’t have an issue calling a student by a name that she or he or ze prefers.” But “looking at the proposal policy with a lawyer’s eyes, I am concerned … I frankly do not see how they could enforce something like this.”
I’m not mismatching singular and plurals. I’m just not going to use ‘they’ when it’s properly him.
But I’m used to people using the wrong names and genders and we just deal with it. My mother calls the dog ‘him’ all the time and she is a girl. She (dog) doesn’t take offense as long as the treats keep coming. I have a brother who changed from John to Jack and, well, I just can’t. I spent the day yesterday with old college friends and one has switched from Kathy to Kathleen, and I try but just can’t do it consistently. I tend to call her by her maiden name which hasn’t been her last name for 40 years.
And if the author’s name is Pat or Chris… ?
in my opinion, no. this has actually happened to me, and the person was incredibly considerate about it. she (whom i called “he”) just said, “hey, i actually the pronouns she/her/hers.” and smiled to let me know it was okay. i just said, “oh, my mistake! sorry about that.” and that was it. if you’re ever in a situation where you don’t know what to use, i’ve learned (from my mtf, ftm, gender non-conforming, etc. pals) it’s best to just use they/them/their pronouns.
most people understand this, which is why most people (who identify as something other than male/female) will introduce themselves with their preferred pronouns at the beginning of their conversations. it just saves awkwardness. i mean, i identify as a cisgendered male, and i will still (sometimes) include my pronouns at the beginning of conversations when i feel it’s necessary.
um… i highly doubt anyone will “push” your conservative son to use pronouns at the beginning of his conversations if he doesn’t want to… aha. i’ve never met anyone who “pushes” it. whether people like/realize it or not, things like cisgenderness are still considered to be the “default” for everyone, which is why you have the idea of “if a person looks male, i’m going to call them a he”. if your son doesn’t publicize his pronouns, people will generally come to the conclusion he uses he/him/his. neither you nor he should worry over that.
We ask for gender pronoun preference on our registration form. We had a student a couple years ago that made a very immature fuss about a much older student whose first language was not English & who had trouble remembering the correct pronoun. All the other students have been cool about it if people trip over the pronoun while getting used to it.
I have seen numerous signatures on higher education listservs that state “Gender pronoun she/her” or the like.
I have no opinion … it’s what people want, so whatever.
“So for you to insinuate something about me because I posted an article that says it is becoming more common place is ridiculous.”
Nobody is insinuating anything about YOU. I said Let’s. Let US, collective, the thread participants. There have been several comments and dialogue on this thread trying to indicate that people are punished for misusing pronouns. We have one poster mentioning an anecdotal story with no detail or references given. I have heard of no other cases where someone was punished for misusing pronouns. There is some talk about putting policies in place to protect against those not using pronouns in hostile ways (repeated, intentional misuse). I would not call that "common place"punishment. I will however state that your insistence that nothing is something is bit of fear mongering. If it actually becomes a common problem we can discuss it as such but it’s not right now. Right now it is pure speculation that it would be a problem. There’s a difference between speculation and practice. I’d rather focus on facts.
There already is a gender neutral honorific: Mx., pronounced mix.
Many new trends go over the top in the beginning. The pendulum eventually stabilizes. As mentioned upthread, it takes determined effort to change societal standards. It will be less in your face in the future.
Most ppl don’t go ballistic if a person accidentally uses a wrong pronoun, but continued wrong use seems to imply nonacceptance or passive-aggressive barbs.
I think the cases of a person requesting pronouns that seem opposite of their physical appearance are few and far between.
I’m a tall, broad-shouldered woman who has short hair, and sometimes I’ve been misgendered. I don’t like it, though in my case the people do it unintentionally. I am sympathetic to a tall, broad-shouldered trans woman equally not wanting to be misgendered, especially if in her case she is misgendered on purpose. I want to know how to refer to people, so I don’t inadvertently say the wrong thing.
The people I know of who are trans or otherwise not cis (in all cases, children of friends of mine) use “he” or “she” or “they.” I do my best to use the right pronoun. If I knew the kids before they transitioned, I sometimes make mistakes.
When I’ve read about pronouns online, I’ve read about people using ze/ve or demanding that people not use pronouns at all for them. I guess I’m sorry I even brought it up, if it’s not actually much of a thing. Except I’m glad Rom chimed in with her experience.
Aren’t you all glad we speak English, which has gender neutral articles instead of feminizing, masculizing or neutering nouns?
“The people I know of who are trans or otherwise not cis (in all cases, children of friends of mine) use “he” or “she” or “they.” I do my best to use the right pronoun. If I knew the kids before they transitioned, I sometimes make mistakes.”
I actually find it easier to remember for the people I know IRL that have transitioned or changed their preferences. It’s rare, I know it’s important to them and they’re sometimes feeling judged or hurt, so I want to let them know I’m supportive in this way. It’s when I meet a huge (to me) number of people at once when I find it hard to remember all the details.
I think we need a singular unisex/gender/identity subject, object, and possessive pronoun: first, because “they/their/them” are not really singular, and it chaps the arrse of the grammar cop in me when people use them as such, at least formally; and second, so that we don’t have to choose the male or female singular form in ambiguous situations.
Ideas:
Subject: Heesh
Object: Herm
Possessive: Herms
I’m old enough to remember when Ms. was still somewhat new and there was indeed push back. I chose not to take my husband’s last name and so I appreciated the availability of Ms. Neither Mrs or Miss really applied. I also resented the idea that I would have to identify myself by whether or not I was married, while men didn’t have the same requirement.
I have no problem using anyone’s pronoun of choice, but I do have a good deal of trouble with “they.” I can’t seem to use it smoothly when talking about a single person. I also don’t like the confusion when my D talks about her friends, some of whom are non-binary. I never know whether we are talking about a single person or a group. I do my best though.
Personally, I wish we could choose one pronoun to apply to all. I would happily adopt “he” for everyone in the same way that we use “man” and “Mankind.” Until that day, I’ll keep muddling through with “they.”
I’m been in a couple of meetings where we went around the room and introduced ourselves and stated our preferred pronouns. A lot of people even with clearly gendered names include their pronouns in their emails I assume to show support for transgendered colleagues.
At the first meeting where we had these types of introductions, a young woman apparently felt so awkward about it that she could barely speak due to an onset of nervous laughter. Then she kept laughing, which made it awkward for all of us because we wanted to believe it was nervous laughter and not that she was mocking the entire idea. And because it was a Diversity Committee.
I have no skin in the game. But I have a relative who has a gender fluid teacher. The teacher has a medallion around their neck. When out of the shirt and in clear view they are assuming one gender. When covered it’s the other. They have to remember and respond at all times with the correct name change and pronouns. This can happen intra school day. They seem to be able to handle this but it is the same classes every day. However they did tell me they are afraid to make a mistake because when it occurs there are consequences. Not suspension but a a clearly angry teacher and pissed off clasmates. It is a changing world for sure. As with most stuff with change it can balky during the transition.
I think it is rather silly but then again I remember the SNL “Pat” skits. If I ever mistake a boy for a girl or vice versa in my use of he or she hopefully the person will correct me and we can move on. If it is an email and you simply don’t know if Sandy is a boy or girl…just write carefully and avoid pronouns.
this is such a complex scenario. how old is your relative, @privatebanker? i can’t imagine high school-aged kids understanding this. college kids maybe, but that’s a big maybe. it gives me some bad vibes. the teacher should know mistakes will be fairly common in a setting as complex as that.
I have a relative who watches the Jordan Peterson videos and gets all worked up about this and other situations that he thinks “PC” has gone too far. There is quite a movement of these folks and they are starting to get traction.
I asked him if it is that hard to be kind. That is the kind of old fashioned values my ordained Christian father instilled in me. Let’s just try to be kind every day.
Juniors in high school @kalons They are very accepting of it from what they’ve said. They’ll be ok. Just adding another level of complexity.