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<p>Not time investment-more emotional investment. She’s at the age where if he’s not marriage material for her, she can’t really see staying in a relationship, but it sometimes means giving up someone who has become a very good friend, and that’s the hard part, I think.
Also, my little blurb about not being able to change people was inspired by her…;)</p>
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<p>For my D, this has also been true. And a few of her ex-BFs, though not the right husband materials for her, but their families would have made excellent potential in-laws.</p>
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<p>I really agree with the first half - that you can’t change someones character.</p>
<p>But the second half (spotty employment history, political views, desire for children) may also be character traits that can’t be changed.</p>
<p>For example, if I wanted kids and were to marry somone who didn’t ever want them. She might change her mind someday. Or she might not. And if I wasn’t willing to not have children, and she never did change her mind, that’d result in divorce. It’s not exactly something that you can compromise on very easily. </p>
<p>A spotty employement history is a tell tale sign of future work. It might change if he or she really wants it to, but it might never change.</p>
<p>I think the big thing is that political affilation, wanting/not wanting kids, or spottiness of employment history aren’t necessarily character flaws and not necessarily deal breakers for everyone. But if they are important to one person, he or she should probably decide if they are willing to accept the other person for who they are.</p>
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<p>Agree. The problem as I see it though is that many young people don’t see the POTENTIAL for problems in those issues. The religion thing is a perfect example - the problems rarely appear before children. But after the kids are born, it most often becomes a BIG issue.</p>
<p>There is a practical side of choosing a partner that should be considered but sometimes gets tossed aside because of L O V E. I suppose that this is why arranged marriages used to be the norm.</p>
<p>Hormones are so often confused with LOVE and long term compatibility. Much depends on how hard BOTH partners are willing and able to make the relationship work–sometimes one or both in the marriage decide that keeping the relationship going is just too much work. This seems to happen more when there are significant differences between the couple that just widens over the years.</p>
<p>We went to a retreat recommended by the Catholic church. It was interesting to see how far apart some of the couples were on a host of areas, especially finances. We could easily see how that could drive a wedge that would broaden unless the couple reached some understandings. </p>
<p>Strong communication skills and willingness and ability to work together seems like a huge GREEN flag. It might be helpful for people to consider if the potential mate would be someone they would be willing to be a business partner and/or close friend, because the couple IS a business partner and hopefully also best friend. Many people know what they do and don’t want in a business partner or friend.</p>
<p>Himom - I am glad you brought up a GREEN flag. Many red flags can be downgraded if people are willing to talk, I would think.</p>
<p>My mother once said it doesn’t matter how long you’ve know someone, you never REALLY know them until you live with them. She was talking about college roommates (specifically my rooming with a high school friend who was not at all who I thought she was), but it also applies to spouses. I worked with an older woman (70-ish) whose husband had died many years earlier. She had since dated a man for many years. We asked her why they didn’t just get married and she said because she knew he would be “nicer” just dating. He would fall asleep in her recliner and she would wake him up and make him go home! Worked just fine for her. lol</p>
<p>Re: Marrying someone who has been divorced / has children from a previous marriage. All I can say is, thank goodness my (step)dad didn’t not-marry my mother because she had me from her first marriage. They got married despite intense parental pressure not to do so, and he was nothing but absolutely wonderful to me from the start - and turned a lot of people who had initially been naysayers into his biggest cheerleaders. Frankly, I think one’s attitude towards “innocent” children is a HUGE character marker. I know plenty of people my age where their stepfathers truly saw a distinction between “the wife’s kids” and “our kids”, and mine saw absolutely no such distinction. I think it’s an incredible reflection on the man he is that he has never treated me and my younger sister any differently from one another based on biology, and I think very, very poorly of people who make such distinctions. </p>
<p>I’m also not so sure I can agree that not getting along with relatives (esp parents / sibs) is a flashing yellow light. Some people really aren’t worth getting along with.
Example: When my dad married my mother and my younger sister was born, his father came to see the new baby and said something to the effect of “oh, look, my first grandchild” with 7-yo-me sitting right there. My dad, who is an extremely mild-mannered person, was incensed and told his father never to say that again around me, that he had 2 grandchildren and he’d darn well better accept me as the first one, end of subject. His father refused to do so and my dad kept his word and they basically didn’t speak for the next 20 years. Bravo for him! Why would “he doesn’t get along with his father” be a badge of character when his father was such a jerk?</p>
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<p>I came of age in the mid 80’s when it was still a little “daring” to live with someone and I didn’t live with my husband before marrying him. In hindsight, we both wish we had lived together first. I would not object to my grown children doing that prior to getting engaged / married. Anyone with me here?</p>
<p>I think it’s good to know the family dynamics of a family you may be entering in to–as you say, there can be good reasons for the discord but it is important to understand and see how you feel about it. It will make life more complicated. Family relationships and why they are as they are can tell you more about the individuals involved. Our nuclear and extended family is generally close, but we do have our rough patches. </p>
<p>I liked to see how my BFs treated their parents as a possible guide as to how they may treat me and my relatives. My H was very nice to his mom but tended to get exasperated with his dad. When we got serious, I warned him that his kids would be watching how his dad was treated for cues about how he should be treated; he worked harder to treat his dad with more patience thereafter.</p>
<p>Studies have shown that folks who live together get divorced at a higher rate than other couples. I don’t think living together would have made a difference in our marriage–we’ve been together decades! Only one of my sibs lived for any period of time with her spouse & she has the most volatile relationship (we figure it’s their personalities–both high maintenance). All of us remain married to original spouses, including my folks who will celebrated their golden anniversary some time back.</p>
<p>I told my daughter’s to employ this test in evaluating the initial attractiveness of a potential partner - imagine that you have a new puppy all cute, cuddly and needy and that you must go away for a long weekend. Would you hesitate to leave the new puppy in this man’s care? If so - don’t bother with the first date. Without going into any particulars of family dynamics, background, communication skills etc., this seemed to cover an initial evalustion of character.</p>
<p>Yea, when I was a juror, I shuddered when I heard some of the other jurors indicate that they were honestly afraid to leave their kids in the custody of their BF while on jury duty (they were serious and I pondered whether it was abuse, neglect or some combo they were concerned about). Glad not to have been in their shoes.</p>
<p>*Why would “he doesn’t get along with his father” be a badge of character when his father was such a jerk? *</p>
<p>Of course, I think we would all say that the exceptions are when the disliked/disowned relative is a jerk (or abuser/addict/criminal/etc). Your stepdad was very right for disassociating himself from a man who would be mean to a child (you) by saying that your younger sis was his first GK. That’s just plain mean. </p>
<p>My BIL won’t speak to his sister’s H (soon to be exH), because the H stole from my BIL. I don’t blame him. If we lived in that area, we probably wouldn’t speak to him either. </p>
<p>I think the concern expressed in an earlier post was more about those who can’t get along with “rather normal” relatives who haven’t done anything seriously wrong.</p>
<p>We went to a retreat recommended by the Catholic church. It was interesting to see how far apart some of the couples were on a host of areas, especially finances.</p>
<p>Isn’t finances the number one cause of divorce? Even higher than infidelity? I really don’t think young couples really explore this issue enough before marriage. </p>
<p>I’m not even sure if the money issue can really be properly explored before marriage because men and women have such different beliefs as to what things are necessary and what things are not. A guy can think 3 pairs of shoes is all that anyone needs, while a woman can’t imagine having less than 20. </p>
<p>(LOL…I still remember when my H made the HUGE mistake of referring to the modest-priced crib we bought for our first child as **my **expense. He got a hard and fast lesson about that notion.)</p>
<p>Red flags: Prying deeply into my financial affairs on the very first date so it resembles more of an IRS audit. Loves drama and/or badmouth/gossip about others behind their back regularly. Exhibits signs of financial mismanagement such as massive credit-card debt from personal consumer spending. Exhibits signs of being unable to stand up to one’s parents/family members when they are acting like jerks or are behaving wrongly. Date/partner and family exhibits contempt for those in the academic/K-12 teaching profession and/or intellectualism (i.e.: “Teachings should be paid and treated like babysitters!” “What is the use of learning [Name your academic subject]?!!”). Date/partner and/or family equate other people’s worthiness of respect mainly/solely on their financial net worth and exhibit consequent contempt upon anyone who has less net worth than them…regardless of the reasons. Too controlling or otherwise try to change who you are without your input.* </p>
<p>Yellow flags: Displays rank arrogance about one’s elite university/college education. Lack of strong curiosity about current events/world and/or to try new things. Making snide comments about expense of guitar collection while girlfriend has shoe collection approaching Imelda Marcos levels.* </p>
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<li>Experienced all of these at some point with different women or some friends experienced with their respective male/female dates.</li>
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<p>I like HImom’s green flag of being able to work together. The happiest married couples I know are ones that work together as a team really well. Whether it’s cooking a meal, or planning a camp out, working on the house–they work together like two horses equally yoked.</p>
<p>Maybe if my D ever comes to think of someone as possible marriage material, I should suggest that they work together on a project…</p>
<p>I’m only 28 but I’ve dated my fair share of jerks. </p>
<p>Red flag - Cheating at board games. If you can’t play Parcheesi without cheating, what else are you going to cheat on in life? (Apparently, ME. I didn’t follow that red flag very well.)</p>
<p>Red flag - Talking back to your mother. If you don’t treat your mother with respect how can I expect you to treat me with respect? (Apparently I can’t. See above.)</p>
<p>Red flag - Not giving me any input on what we do. If you’ve been over to my house one time in a whole year, chances are we aren’t on a very even playing field as far as how this “relationship” is going. Taking a job in another state without consulting me first also ranks up there with not giving me any input. Oh and how about telling your friends that we were engaged (lie) after we broke up while at the same time you are trying to get me back by telling me that I am nothing without you. No no no no no. All giant red flags.</p>
<p>Yellow flag - Being too needy or clingy. I realize people have issues and sometimes need a rock to lean on but eventually that rock is going to crack. When I no longer have time for my self or my friends and spend all my time doing what you want to do, something has to give.</p>
<p>Yellow flag - Lack of ambition or desire. This may go hand in hand with being needy, clingy and having issues. If you are “stuck” in a job making 9 dollars an hour after working there for two years and NOT looking for other job prospects, and living with your parents and complaining about how miserable your life is, maybe you need to get off your butt and do something about it. Maybe I should move this to red flag.</p>
<p>Green Flags - If I am home sick from work and you show up on my door step after unexpectedly taking a half day from work with juice, medicine, and lunch then you must be doing something right. </p>
<p>Green Flags - I agree with the ability to work together. I think a persons true feelings come out when you face issues and adversity together. This could also be a red flag, depending on the person. My current BF and I can cook a four course meal together in the kitchen with smiles on our faces and without tripping over each other. We also can hang dry wall on the ceiling without dropping it on each others heads. :)</p>
<p>Red flag - Cheating at board games.</p>
<p>Ahhhh…this brings up another…someone who is a sore loser. That is either a yellow or red flag depending on the level of “soreness” the loser exhibits. </p>
<p>I once knew an adult who nearly had a temper tantrum whenever he would lose any kind of game…board, card, sport, etc. </p>
<p>If a person can’t keep such unimportant things in reasonable perspective, it’s likely that this inability is going to loom largely in many other areas! </p>
<p>(I wonder if any therapist on this board could weigh in on what being a seriously sore loser suggests…Just wondering.)</p>
<p>*My current BF and I can cook a four course meal together in the kitchen with smiles on our faces and without tripping over each other. We also can hang dry wall on the ceiling without dropping it on each others heads.<br>
*</p>
<p>sounds like a keeper! :)</p>
<p>It did help cement our relationships when my BF (now-H) supported me when I was standing in for my parents who were off on vacation when my younger bro and his buddies decided to intimidate a coach at an off campus function. I was called in to work with the counselor who told me point blank I COULD contest the school taking any action because it was off campus but if it were his kid, he’d want the school to act to prevent my bro from doing something more dangerous and dumb in the future. I concurred with him, with the understanding that it WOULD NOT go on his record.</p>
<p>He was not allowed to attend activities after school for a week except grad practice for a week. In addition, I grounded him and he could only speak with his friends on the phone and come straight home after school/grad practice. I was vilified by him & sibs as a tyrant but H supported me and said it was a fair and appropriate punishment so bro could reflect on his actions and figure out how dangerous a situation they were creating–a large group of strong young men surrounding a lone older man in a parking lot. I tried to make him realize what COULD have happened if just one of them happened to strike out.</p>
<p>To this day, we have always presented a united front in dealing with disciplinary issues (discussing any differences in private).</p>
<p>Yeah, cheating at games and sore loser is a bad sign for sure–can be red for at least yellow. Shows a lot of immaturity and makes you wonder if they have a moral code other than “what they want, they get.”</p>