<p>Men have the pressure of being primary breadwinners all the time, but no one feels sorry for them over it.</p>
<p>Very true.</p>
<p>But in this culture if that is ALL a father does, he’s considered as having done his job. Mothers don’t get that Hall Pass.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl–my discussion with my Son centered on where a parent places their primary personal importance. This goes equally for both parents.</p>
<p>I find my primary personal satisfaction to be that of a parent to my Son. This was not necessarily the case for his mom.</p>
<p>At least in my group, there IS an awareness of the male parents who never show up for anything relating to the child. They are not judged favorably. Just as there is for the moms who aren’t there. In my experience it is the females who are the most sensitive to this judgment, but there is a negative judgment of the absentee dads. </p>
<p>zoosermom-- my mother (born 1915) had to support her mother and younger brother during the depression after her dad died. She did it as a dancer/dancer instructor and sales clerk. Since I was born in 1950 and my dad was a professional, mom was stay at home. She discharged the job description of “mother” but would glow when she related her stories of working.</p>
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<p>So then are people who ship their kids off to boarding school by ninth grade not parenting either? They might go months without seeing their kids. Isn’t that what’s implied by this idea?</p>
<p>zoosermom,
Wow, my life story is almost identical to yours. I felt like I was reading my own post…eerie.</p>
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<p>Completely agree with this.</p>
<p>Edited to add: I also read with interest the advice you gave to your daughters. I have not given my daughter any advice on this subject yet because she is only still in middle school, however I have thought about what I might say when the time comes. I do agree that, while working opposite shifts appears to be a good option and the best of both worlds, the effects on a marriage can be (and pretty much was, in my case) devastating. Which goes back to the original idea that being independently wealthy is the only option that doesn’t involve some kind of trade off. Interesting discussion here on CC.</p>
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<p>Courts systems disagree with you as this is often all dads get.</p>
<p>My Dad was only given every other weekend by the court. This was in the late 60’s.</p>
<p>I do sometimes think it is a good idea to have your kids when you are young and poor! We were able to live so frugally, shared housing with roommates, lived in grad housing, we both worked parttime w/ a fellowship, coop daycare that was cheap… it wasn’t until youngest was in pre-k that I worked fulltime, and even then it was optimal, since I worked for the school district and had all vacations and summers off with the kids. There was a lot more flexibility in our life, since we were in grad school for most of the kid’s young lives, and our living costs were so minimal.</p>
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<p>There is another side to this. If you are an older parent and have not gotten yourself into debt, it may be possible to arrange your work in a way that allows work to take a lessor role to that of parenting.</p>
<p>I withdrew from a partnership and went into private practice to be able to raise my Son. That way I could work on the school cafeteria line, be at sports events, do the doctor’s appointments etc.</p>
<p>This is really good conversation. I wanted to stay home and I did. I felt very fortunate and have come to terms that I really will never know if it was of benefit to my two kids but it was of benefit to our family life. Staying home allowed me to not live at such a hectic pace. My only regret is having to be financially dependent on my H. He was fairly successful and I helped him open and run our own business but somewhere he just gave up. Part was the tough recession and depression. All I knew was that I still had to run and manage the family (as kids were applying to college) and run the business as well. It all hit the fan. Flash forward a year and I found a part time job that I love. He is running the business with more drive. I never knew how much I needed the outside affirmation of a job. Besides the income it has shown me I am competent with a lot to offer. I do now however feel I need a full time job to be able to support myself and not have to depend on H financially. I can’t trust that he will keep providing for our family. The youngest leaves in the fall and my goal is to be full time by then. To have choices is a blessing. But it’s hard not to look back and wonder what choices would have provided a better outcome. I’m planning on working the next 20 years as hard as I can.</p>
<p>*Quote:
His ex was “fine” with “every other weekend”. Not many of us (male or female) are fine with that…and we don’t think that is parenting.</p>
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So then are people who ship their kids off to boarding school by ninth grade not parenting either? They might go months without seeing their kids. Isn’t that what’s implied by this idea?*</p>
<p>High school age kids are a different issue. But, if someone ships their kindergartner (or pre-schooler) off to boarding school, then maybe a whole bunch of eyebrows would go up…and it could be argued that you’re not parenting your child.</p>
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<p>*Quote:
His ex was “fine” with “every other weekend”. Not many of us (male or female) are fine with that…and we don’t think that is parenting.</p>
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<p>Courts systems disagree with you as this is often all dads get.
*</p>
<p>With all of the “shared custody” agreements that go on these days, I wouldn’t expect the “every other weekend” deal to occur that much unless the NCP wants that, or the NCP isn’t believed to be a strong enough parent. Not always, but these days “hands-on dads” seem to get more visitation than “every other weekend.”</p>
<p>My mother was the epitome of a homemaker. She was also uneducated. My dad loved her dearly and wanted her home and never left her, but she was wise enough to learn from looking around her. She quite simply told me to make sure I would always be able to support myself and any children I might have by myself. Interestingly enough, it was also her who suggested pharmacy to me.
We have been enormously blessed. The one deficit was that we had zero family help around when the boys were little, we were totally dependent on each other when times were tough such as when one of them was ill.</p>
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<p>This actually happened to my step-mother. She was born in 1912 and was sent to “boarding school” at the age of 6. No, I don’t understand it either. Maybe this is what they did in some circles in the olden days, but her experience (which made me so, so sad) was the first (and last) I’ve ever heard of it.</p>
<p>Of course, you’re not parenting your child if they’re not in your home. How could you be. Over Skype? Actually, it could easily be argued that a dad who visits every other week is not parenting a child. Many single moms would have no trouble making this argument.</p>
<p>I know two young women who are both the main bread winners by far in their families. Both have what are considered prized jobs, and yes, they do love working. But the fact of the matter is that for them to have babies is that it is THEIR bodies, not the males’ that will be the hosts. THEIR hormones will be affected If they want to nurse, and they both do, the milk comes from THEIR breasts, and it 's not always that easy to pump enough when one works a full time job. </p>
<p>I don’t think that it is just the physical that is affected when having children, and a woman’s body does include the brain and hormones that will also dictate how one feels about giving up the children to others’ care. Not as much for some as others–I certainly agree that being female and a mother is not an automatic for being a great caretaker for children, but I think if one makes the talley between the sexes, the numbers will come out a lot higher for the females by quite a bit. </p>
<p>It pains both the women involved that they have to leave their kids for 50+ hours a week to the care of others. Their husbands? They don’t care as much. They’d happily leave them for more. Yes, they love their kids, but it’s not as high of a priority for them. Anecdotal, yes, but I think it is more typical than not. It’s difficult to beat the biology, and the fact of the matter is that women do carry that chlld and it’a long time that child is a part of a woman. Cutting the cord is just one physical break. The rest do not come as easily.</p>
<p>Most independently wealthy families, by the way, do hire caretakers and baby sitters for their children. I know a number of them, and not a one spends the time I did with my kids. </p>
<p>As Zoosermom’s post shows, her working all of these years is not necessarily going to mean she’s going to have a great career to retirement. Job fields have undergone a lot of changes, and anyone who has put the time in an area that is cutting back drasticly has a high chance of being under or unemployed. Throw in a divorce and yes, such a person will be in trouble. The math teacher, the nurse, doctor, health care professional is far more likely to find work with some refresher courses even taking a 20 year hiatus from the job because the demand is there in that field. </p>
<p>As for the heat being on the working mother more than the working father, it’s simply a matter of numbers. You see far more working fathers. They are the norm. Not unusual at all. The working mothers are fewer in number, though more than in earlier years, and I’m seeing more non working fathers as the other parent than I ever did before. It used to be both parents working when there was a working mom, and it was very clear that in such situations, the father was the one with more emphasis on work. For many years, I’ d make calls to parents or talk to them about upcoing things, and when it’s the dad, because I never presumed that it had to be the mom I directed this ino, more times than not, he’d tell me to tell his wife because she took care of those things. Didn’t even want to know about it, just tell the mom. I’ve never, never in 30 years of dealing with this, gotten that response from a mother. So it’s the way things actually have been.</p>
<p>Are they changing? Somewhat. But from seeing my friends’ kids who are married now embarking on parenthood, many with full time career moms in the pictures, again, those moms, even as the one making the most money with the job that needs the most time, are taking the lion’s share of the parenting.</p>
<p>My brother is a SAHD, and though he is involved as much as any dad I’ve known and more than most he is not up there, not even average among the SAHMs I’ve known. Not all his doing, as he is often left out in the kitchen klatches and get together among the moms, since he’s one of very few dads who are truly SAH in his community. He will tell you right out, that even with moms working full time, they tend to be more involved with their kids than the dads in the picture.</p>
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<p>My Dad was only given every other weekend by the courts. Nevertheless, he was ALWAYS there for me emotionally and according to my Mom, never missed a child support payment and was never even late once with them. We could talk to my Dad by phone whenever we wanted to. As we got older, the schedule seemed to get more flexible and he and my Mom would work things out to accommodate special circumstances. He always called to get results of our grades, was present at band concerts, recitals, etc. He tried to impart his values to us just as any parent does; we had many conversations about the usual subjects of honesty, the importance of education and hard work, religious issues, politics, his thoughts on boyfriends, the importance of extended family, etc. I never doubted my Dad’s devoted love for me and my brothers, and to this day he is the biggest loving teddy bear of a father. NO ONE could “easily argue” that my Dad didn’t parent us because he only got to see us every other weekend during our childhoods. When I got married, my wonderful stepfather did a reading that was very meaningful for me, but it was my Dad who walked me down the aisle.</p>
<p>So, I didn’t say always. I said there are single moms would argue that in their situation they are doing all of the parenting. Yay, for your dad!</p>
<p>But in this culture if that is ALL a father does, he’s considered as having done his job. Mothers don’t get that Hall Pass.</p>
<p>Completely.
When women work outside the home, then dads do a little more around the house, IF, the mom puts in the same amount of hours/ earns as much as they do.
Theoretically.
Mowing the grass & cleaning the gutters count.
Its still mom that does the grocery shopping & cooking.
This was my generation however. Young men these days are much more egalitarian.</p>
<p>As for that article, even without the SAHM theme that is central to it, the issues the author is facing are the exact ones a number of women her age and mine have when a marriage comes to an end, the spouse loses job or earning power, the field in which one works is becoming increasingly competitive and downisizing. A very good friend of mine who has worked all of her life, full time as she raised her children, divorced when they were in their teens, is now hitting a major crisis point as she has been riffed from her job and cannot find anything any where near what she has been making. Child support is no longer in the picture and as a divorcee, it’s all up to her. The divorce depleted a lot of the family resources when one household was split into two, and she did not save as she put so much into keeping the family home for the kids, and the housing market just isn’t what she’d hope it would be come selling time. She’s not underwater, but there isn’t going to be much or anything in pocket if she sells due to refinancing . Too young to draw social security, not much if anything in the pensions and 401Ks, again, the spoils of divorce. </p>
<p>She saw it coming and had been looking for a job for a couple of years now. Nothing. I don’t know what she is going to do as her kids are not self sufficient either–one still in college which the dad is paying, as she could not. The other lives in an apartment owned by paternal grandparents and is still being subsidized by the same and Dad. She has no one.</p>
<p>Nrdsb4, thank you for sharing your story. I think your dad sounds wonderful. </p>
<p>It isn’t always as easy as it seems, and I hate making blanket pronouncements. We wouldn’t judge military fathers for being away for a year or two at a time, right? </p>
<p>Having said that, I couldn’t imagine not seeing my kids through till age 18. My ex recently moved out of state but he has been wonderful about coming to visit. Not only does he plan special things with our daughter, he has me make “(ex)honey-do” lists and does whatever I need done around the house. :)</p>
<p>^^^</p>
<p>Sally…the “ex-honey-do” lists are amazing. Can we all adopt your ex to be our ex’s, too. ;)</p>