@Sue22, thanks for linking that thread about the rejected student. He’s an excellent student, with scores to match. He would have been snapped up by many LACs. But he only applied to the lottery schools.
The modesty and introspection are good. The bullets are off. If he gives advice on chance me threads, we’re back where we started.
And remember, it’s not just stats and “telling.”
@usualhopeful said:
Wow, you very conveniently omitted the extremely inflammatory, misogynist, and “crass” posts by the OP of that thread which preceded the comments you quoted. Talk about taking something out of context.
SMH…
In general, students expectations are too high, and this problem is particularly acute when they are applying to engineering or CS, which seems to be the majors du jour. However, at times, I also see the opposite problem. Counselors and posters who get so jaded that they can’t recognize a student who has a good chance to be admitted to top schools when they are looking right at them.
In DD1’s case, she is a high stats white kid with a 4.0, 2340 SAT (800, 800, 740) one sitting, math and physics subject tests of 790 and 760, NM finalist (228), MIT WTP with reference letter, varsity athlete and team captain and state qualifier, National AP scholar, strong in math with BC Calc 5, MV calculus, linear algebra, discrete math and writes well (AP lang 5, AP Comp 5). She did not have a hard hook, but had many things that made her application strong.
A counselor reviewed all of her information and essays. She was told that her essays were strong, but there was a significant chance she would not be admitted to a single top 50 school for engineering CS because she did not have a hard hook, and urged her to apply to lower schools. Based on naviance, and cc: data, and many discussions with admissions at many schools, I thought the chance of a broad top 50 rejection that was essentially zero. Still this counselor convinced her not to apply to a few schools because “admission was so unlikely that it was waste of time.” In the end, she applied to 14 schools across the top 50 and then added a safety school at about 75. Many of those would not have happened if I had not persisted in challenging her to apply to her favorites and ignore the counselor.
The counselor made DD1 so nervous that she cried when she received her first admission response, from UIUC. Then the deluge came: Michigan came with $80k merit, UVA Echols, Cal Berkeley w $100 k Regents and Chancellors, Cornell w a likely letter, Carnegie Mellon, North Carolina, WUSTL, Tufts, UCLA, Penn, Columbia all accepted her. She received one top 10 rejection and one deferral.
The point is that while introducing reality to unrealistic applicants, it is also important to encourage top students and be sure they know that they do have a chance for top schools, when that is appropriate.
The counselor must not have recognized the hook of being a female for engineering/CS!
@CTTC “The counselor must not have recognized the hook of being a female for engineering/CS!”
I raised this point repeatedly, but the counselor said she just wasn’t good enough. Ex post, everyone agreed that this was the reason, but ex ante that was not the story at all. That is really my point.
This issue was frustrating because she is a student who wants and needs to be challenged, and to find classes where she is with peers instead of classes where she is the best student. In the end, she is at a school that is making that happen for her, and we are very pleased, but during the process, many people showed what I think was ridiculous negativity.
Additionally, the advanced math problem with females was especially evident in MV Calculus during senior year. There were 25 students in the class: 21 male students and only 4 female students. DD1 was the only white female, the other three females were Asian.
Don’t get me started about that particular issue; we’ve been battling it for years. The stories I could tell (and I have related a few on CC), starting in middle school, about my girls in STEM bumping up against everything from ignorant indifference to outright sabotage are infuriating.
Much2learn, congrats to her.
But, if another reader sees the stats, the interest, and gender, they tend to assume that’s all it takes. I would bet a lot of her app represented a high quality of thinking and action, made sense and impressed those adcoms, ie, the “rest.” I doubt her presentation was the simple, “I want to be with top peers,” which is all many kids can muster.
@Much2learn , my take is that counselor’s crappy advice and general orientation is a product of this same, “there are so many ‘XYZ’ s out there; our chances are virtually zero” thinking.
Meanwhile, half of Bellevue Washington is running around with an Ivy League or equivalent degree. I exaggerate, of course, but people are getting in, and they are not all NMFs.
I had a very similar experience with a counselor hired a couple years ago. She’s based in Issaquah, Washington. Entirely negative, extremely uninformed about the recruiting process and how they work and differ among D1,2 and 3, and the role of athletics at D3 schools in general. But she’s also stubborn about her lack of knowledge, which makes her dangerous. She would say things that were completely inaccurate. She also did a lousy of job proof-reading and offering thoughtful commentary for my D’s essay, a service that is explicitly listed in her materials. Unless I’ve actually flushed $3K down a toilet at some point, I don’t think I’ve ever had less return on an investment in my life.
If you want the same “everything is impossible”, lazy essay help and the pointless and endless reminders that she can’t guarantee admission to any school, then she’s your counselor. Anybody in the Seattle who’d like to avoid her PM me.
I think private counselors can be negative on purpose to further their own agenda. What better way to tout the high acceptance rates of your clientele than “managing clients’ expectations” and getting applicants to apply cautiously rather than finding some solid matches and safeties than swinging for the fences?
@doschicos, this one was ridiculous. I’m the kind of guy who rarely sends his dinner back. I just hate the hassle. But I actually contemplated spending $5K to get my $3K back from this woman on principle.
She is a nightmare.
“Some of his advice is typically off.”
Agreed.
D2’s private counselor wanted D2 to apply to higher ranking schools than the one D2 wanted. He was very strategic in getting many of his students into schools they otherwise wouldn’t be able to. He charged a lot more than 3K, but most of his clients thought it was money well spent.
I would say that people who actually want advice tend to get pretty good advice here.
In contrast to people who just want their egos stroked or want a soundingboard for their rant.
@hunt “I would say that people who actually want advice tend to get pretty good advice here.”
Yes, but sometimes you have to do a bit of sifting to separate the wheat from the chaff.
A blowtorch is a lot more effective at burning off the chaff. 
Was this a paid counselor, or one at the school? Her ignorance is surprising!
Your d had many wonderful acceptances. Where did she ultimately choose to go?
@Much2learn I think your D was highly underserved by the counselor. An accomplished athlete with those kind of stats will get into most places. It is really a hard thing to do with the time commitment they have to make to do that well in school and most adcoms who are being forced to give a lot of leeway to admit underqualified students because the coaches need them can see that.
^^^
I agree. And did you track the acceptance rate to MIT for participants of WTP? It is very high.