I agree that it’s baffling that they obviously planned to get away with it but then went home, busdriver. If they had simply driven away on the freeways, they probably could have gotten to Mexico without anyone catching them. I guess it wasn’t helpful that even though he was wearing a mask, the people in the auditorium (or whatever the space was) apparently recognized him and/or his voice.
It is baffling, Donna. In fact, such evil is confusing to me. To do this to your child, to people you may not know, I don’t understand this. Take yourself out if you must, but so many innocent people? It’s not like one person just snapped, it was two of them. So selfish.
^ That there were two seems odd. Much like in the Boston case, I wonder if we’ll ever find out who turned whom to the dark side or for what reason…
Prezbucky, You’re falling victim to the notorious No True Scotsman fallacy.
“No true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge”
“No, you’re wrong, My Scottish friend Angus puts sugar on his porridge.”
“Angus is no true Scotsman!”
If you want to define a Christian (or a Muslim) as someone who wouldn’t commit mass murder, then a terrorist can’t be a Christian (or Muslim). But the rest of us don’t think that’s a useful definition. And in particular, if I would have said Robert Dear was a Christian a week before the killings, if I knew him, because he said he was a Christian, and read the Bible, and so forth, then I’m going to say he is still a Christian now.
I agree with you, Cardinal Fang, and was considering making exactly that point. Of course, the exact same fallacy is committed by the great many people who insist that Isis and its followers are not “true Muslims.”
The latest:
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/live-blog-deadly-mass-shooting-in-san-bernardino/
I don’t get any of it. The brother-in-law, by the way, apparently says that he’s “shocked” and insists he wasn’t involved.
Nobody is apologizing for them or minimizing their actions. It’s a matter of waiting until more concrete information is released to conclude what might have motivated them in a more nuanced way. For example - even if they were motivated by a desire for ideological/religious terrorist action did they think this up themselves or have help? In a google search last night I stumbled across a new site with a particular slant which was saying early on that based on long range photos of the shell casings in the street they could tell that it must be an ISIS cell that brought guns up from Mexico (as if that would be necessary). When I went to bed (11pm Pacific) the coroners and officers hadn’t even gotten to processing the actual crime scene yet because they were still clearing the building. They hadn’t entered the home yet. I’m not willing to jump that far ahead.
Nope, no guns smuggled up from Mexico - all four guns (two handguns and the assault rifles) were purchased legally in the U.S. four years ago. Hey, why smuggle guns into the country when it’s so easy to buy whatever you want here?
From the Associated Press:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_CALIFORNIA_SHOOTINGS_THE_LATEST?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
It’s not baffling. It jibes w the accounts of young muslim women married to ISIS fighters.
ISIS is right on that count: having a baby at home makes one an unreliable martyr. This San Bernardino couple was planning to get home to their 6 mo old baby.
I don’t buy the terrorism link yet. I know San Bernardino and Redlands very well, having lived there. If they wanted more attractive targets, there were plenty of restaurants down the street in the Hospitality Lane area which would have been full of people at that hour.
This couple had clearly planned an attack for some time. But I’ve been wondering whether the place they attacked was their original intended target.
Did the dude get into an argument at the company xmas party and then impulsively attack that place because he had a hot arsenal?
Do we know that as actually true because I haven’t been able to find anything other than speculation from media outlets about that, and the police haven’t said officially. Separate issue:The thing I wonder is this: if the guy was off the grid, living in the woods, had no power, no internet, how was he watching videos or learning about them?
I’m in the ideologically-driven crime of opportunity camp. I bet the couple cranked each other up and they chose a target based on having information that would make them feel comfortable that they knew what they were doing.
I am not so sure that the brother-in-law doesn’t know anything. Pretty hard to hide that from close family. Plus one sight says the male shooter posted that he liked to do target practice in the backyard WITH his sister…
Hopefully law enforcement will take a long hard look at all the family members.
I’m not sure that’s true. Here are some that aren’t and are often ignored.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/03/us/chris-harper-mercer-umpqua-community-college-shooting.html
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/20/mass-shooter-elliot-rodger-isla-vista-killings-report
http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/Suspect-in-North-Miami-Triple-Murder-Killed-Self-Police-137084198.html
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwi34obM7b_JAhWDGD4KHS5CAf4QFgg-MAc&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbsnews.com%2Fnews%2Fihop-gunman-eduardo-sencion-had-mental-issues-says-family%2F&usg=AFQjCNFEeSfMotQeOj3YoJqeiP5ZDEId3w&sig2=hlnhb7YDI9UAlbeS7WSyjg&bvm=bv.108538919,d.cWw
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/12/nyregion/12binghamton.html
http://abcnews.go.com/US/seung-hui-chos-mental-health-records-released/story?id=8278195
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/lirr-bloodbath-remembered-20-years-article-1.1539603
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/7-dead-in-chicago-rampage/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nidal-hasan-sentenced-to-death-for-fort-hood-shooting-rampage/2013/08/28/aad28de2-0ffa-11e3-bdf6-e4fc677d94a1_story.html
http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/ci_12382259
I would say that the Roof and Dear were Christian terrorists and definitely white males, but I’m not sure that, unless either is a motive, it even matters. I wouldn’t say that Adam Lanza was a Christian terrorist because there is no evidence that he was acting on that motive.
There are also countless, countless, stories like this
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/20/chicago-park-shooting_n_3959062.html. I could post links to such stories for pages, God help us.
What I would like to know is whether any existing gun laws ere not enforced, and which, if any, new gun laws could be passed in order to have prevented any of these or future shootings.
Ironically, I am in the midst of reading Dave Cullen’s Columbine, and I am struck by how much press, public, police got wrong then. As Cullen writes, the data was correct, but the conclusions were all wrong. That often seems to be the case in a wired society that expects cogent thought in 144 characters or a 2-minute “story” on the news.
The victims will be no less dead if we wait a few days to assemble an accurate preliminary analysis. I heard an interview with a Cali rep of the Arab-American Society and he correctly pointed out that Americans who are Muslims are horrified just as fellow Americans are, worried about violence at their workplace, just as fellow Americans are – with the added stress and worry of violence against their families in retailiation, and misperception of their faith. We have students who have been pulled from school to protect them from their white classmates’ parents’ misdirected anger.
When a Christian white man shoots up a prayer group, or a movie theater, or an elementary school, we don’t see calls to monitor all white Christians, or profile them, or limit their civil liberties. And God forbid we consider that there are guns everywhere. Mr. Trump – shall we just arm everyone, everywhere? That couldn’t possibly turn out to be a bad idea, right?
Actually, Muslims are more worried because they know that they are usually the first and most passionate targets of jihadists.
I am also curious, and waiting for facts, about whether it is actually true that there was serious bomb making going on in the couple’s apartment. I imagine that will be known at some point.
Why do you suppose they didn’t kill more people? If they were intent on making any kind of statement, wouldn’t they have taken out everyone they possibly could? Or is it that they wanted to get away with this and knew their window for escape was short?
And I agree they were really really stupid.
Maybe that was phase one of their plan. Or maybe they were planning something bigger, and this was an impulsive attack after the issue at the party.