So it does seem as if there actually were explosive devices.
There is something really “off” about this whole story. Devastating for the innocent people caught up in it.
I see no reason to assume that Adam Lanza had Christian religious beliefs. I don’t think anything is actually known about his beliefs.
Consolation, that’s what I said, as well.
A small part of me does wonder if all of these gun crimes lately are a result of a movement to tighten gun control. And yes, I am suggesting a conspiracy here… I don’t fully believe that’s what’s really going on, but what if?
“I am not so sure that the brother-in-law doesn’t know anything. Pretty hard to hide that from close family. Plus one sight says the male shooter posted that he liked to do target practice in the backyard WITH his sister…”
I’m sure the brother-in-law could give all sorts of information, but it doesn’t mean that he suspected what they were going to do. He just didn’t want to talk about that now, probably without a lawyer and before everything is known. He seemed truly grieved and in shock.
Not to put too fine a point upon it, that’s insane. (Not you, the idea.)
^^How’s the tinfoil hat feeling? 
That is the distinction I realize that people do not want to make - Islamic terrorists are motivated by their religion and the requirement that they kill infidels, i.e., non-believers. And what is even more telling is that islamic terrorists are rarely ever accused of being mentally-ill or socially unstable. What is key is being Islamic to them is not just a trait, it is the reason and the intent for their actions.
In the cases cited above, was not Roof motived by outright racism and the want to start a race war? No one even cited that he believed his religion was any part of his driving force; they focused on the Confederate flag and Southern culture. There is no indication he even went to church. So being born a Christian was a cultural trait, not his raison d’être. Racism was his motive. For Islamic terrorists, Islam is the reason they cite for their actions - Islam they say is their motive.
Same with Dear. Nothing indicates he even practices his religion or even goes to church. He is coming off as looney bin. And this automatic concept that Christianity is the key is not only stretch it is telling, as one can be an atheist and agnostic and believe selling baby parts is a wrong. It is interesting that people automatically jumped that his Christian beliefs were his driving cause. Has he even expressed any religious beliefs? Or is that completely assumed? I find that really weird in that nowhere does he say or indicate that religion is part of his life. On the other hand, Islamic terrorists believes their religion and god is telling them to kill people.
Same of Lanza and the guy who shot up the theater in in Colorado - nowhere is it even indicated that religion is the reason they did their actions or even part of their lives. However, we know that both are severally mentaly-ill. In contrast, Islamic terrorists are totally driven by their religious beliefs.
Why people want to create a morally relative religious motive when one does not exist simply highlights that they know the people they support have a major problem on their hands and they need to now paint everyone as religiously motived to commit murder to try an alleviate the obviousness of their Islam problem.
“A small part of me does wonder if all of these gun crimes lately are a result of a movement to tighten gun control. And yes, I am suggesting a conspiracy here… I don’t fully believe that’s what’s really going on, but what if?”
That’s about as looney-bin as the idea that the Dems are behind the rise of Trump so that the Republicans can implode and the Dems will win the election. I have very little patience for people who believe in conspiracy theories of any sort.
“When a Christian white man shoots up a prayer group, or a movie theater, or an elementary school, we don’t see calls to monitor all white Christians, or profile them, or limit their civil liberties”
Perhaps it’s because they aren’t running in there shooting, yelling, “Jesus Christ rocks!” Their faith appears irrelevant to their actions (and most of those guys didn’t sound devout, and even assuming they are Christian may be a stretch), while many of the attacks from Muslims, their faith appears central to their attacks.
I’m not sure that’s true. ^^ Even if you look through this thread, intelligent people are perfectly comfortable suggesting all Muslims are devout and therefore inevitably influenced by their religion. But the many shooters who turn out to be right-wing Christians — their faith is very much seeming to influence their sense that God wants 'Merica to be a certain conservative way, and any deviation from that (definition of marriage, biracial children, government programs, pro-choice rights) is a problem God wants the Christian to remedy. Because it is not stated as they kill you does not make it necessarily irrelevant. And those issues are getting a pass, because we aren’t comfortable (i think) with examining the bias we exhibit by saying “oh well, he was Christian but THAT doesn’t have anything to do with it, it’s only Muslims that kill people directed by faith”. (What a world, where that sentence can be typed)
But let’s assume you are accurate; Muslims are seriously influenced by their faith, Christians are not. As a Christian myself, I should feel better because my religion doesn’t really require any behavioral change, just going to church occasionally? I can be an observant Christian but nobody would think I really meant anything by it? I’m not arguing, just trying to think things through.
It’s really hard for me to imagine that the mother of a 6 month old baby would sign on for something like this, knowing that it likely would not end well. She had to have known that. Or did she?
It does not make sense.
I think the difference is that for many people, certainly not all, Islam is a political movement as much of a religion, and often adherents come from places where religion is politics and is central to daily life in all ways.
That’s less true of people of other faiths. Not universally true, but I think it’s an aspect.
It doesn’t make sense to us for a mom of a tiny baby to do what she did, but it clearly made sense to her. Maybe she just felt so passionately about her actions that she felt martyrdom was appropriate.
Here’s a piece of speculation: if these people thought they could escape, perhaps what they really wanted was to kill some particular person (or persons) at that party, and then let it seem to be a random terrorist attack. It seems pretty far-fetched that anybody could think they could get away with that. But that seems to be essentially what the DC sniper had in mind (if you remember him)–he apparently wanted to shoot a bunch of random people so that when he got around to shooting his ex-wife he wouldn’t be suspected. (He was caught before he shot her, so I’m not sure if this theory of his motive was fully confirmed.)
I am disgusted that Obama apparently said “it could be terror related” when as far as I can tell, and y’all can correct me if I’m wrong, the only reason to consider it terror is the names of the suspects.
People shooting up workplaces is old news in the US. Remember “going postal”? That’s what people do in the US, they get upset because they think they are entitled to a perfect job and perfect workplace, and then they flip.
Happened in my state not too long ago, a guy was fired “unfairly” and he shot and killed a security guard before being shot and killed himself. Security guard had nothing to do with his firing of course.
The shootings in Colorado Springs were definitely terrorism with a religious basis, and there are many discussions about “should we call him a terrorist?” and again, as far as I can tell the only reason NOT to call him a terrorist was due to being white and Christian.
“But let’s assume you are accurate; Muslims are seriously influenced by their faith, Christians are not. As a Christian myself, I should feel better because my religion doesn’t really require any behavioral change, just going to church occasionally? I can be an observant Christian but nobody would think I really meant anything by it? I’m not arguing, just trying to think things through”
I’m not saying that, “Muslims are seriously influenced by their faith, Christians are not”. More like, some Muslims are seriously influenced by their faith to kill others in a jihad. These people murder others with the belief that they will be going to Heaven for their actions…I suspect the Christians that execute others think they will probably going to Hell.
I’m an agnostic, and know very little about Christianity. But it seems that they desire to convert people, to share their faith so others can be saved. That the violent parts in the Bible are not taken literally. You cannot say that about Islam, where conversion can be considered a death sentence, and the Quran is considered to be the literal word of God. It’s all right there for extremists to act upon. You don’t hear about Christian preachers encouraging violence, but there seem to be plenty of Islamic religious leaders doing the job.
Pretending that all religions are the same is a fallacy, As an agnostic, I think every religion is a little whacky, though I respect others beliefs. However, ignoring the fact that literal Islam is a driving factor for so much violence and suppression of women throughout the world doesn’t help the problem.
I haven’t read all the posts so if I repeat I apologize but I guess the recent Planned Parenthood shooter and yesterday’s San Bernandino shooters are just members of the second amendment’s “well regulated militia” that Chief Justice Roberts and his ilk were referring to when they held that the right to bear arms was an individual right.
"I am disgusted that Obama apparently said “it could be terror related” when as far as I can tell, and y’all can correct me if I’m wrong, the only reason to consider it terror is the names of the suspects.
People shooting up workplaces is old news in the US. Remember “going postal”? That’s what people do in the US, they get upset because they think they are entitled to a perfect job and perfect workplace, and then they flip."
Seriously? You think this is just workplace violence? The guy just flipped? He just got mad at a party, and went postal?
Sounds like they had been building their arsenal for weeks, at least. He was devoutly religious, had recently traveled to Saudi Arabia. If they find links to terror networks, radical mosques, help from ISIS members, will you still think it is workplace violence?
Google “Army of God” for a domestic Christian terrorist group.
I think the presence of multiple adult shooters and heavy preparation makes it more likely than not that there is a terrorist element to this attack, so it is hardly disgusting that Obama said that it could be terror-related–unless, of course, everything Obama says disgusts you.
I’m trying to think of prior events like this. I don’t think there are many.