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Well, here’s another instance of Godwin’s law.</p>
<p>I had no idea that Dobson had so much influence back in the 1950’s and 60’s.</p>
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My parents did spank me, rarely. But they also thought manners were important, and they taught me some.</p>
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<p>I know it’s bad form to answer a question with a question but…why is it “right?” It’s not right to hit ones spouse, boss, employees, co-workers, siblings, friends, etc. but it’s right to hit a child?</p>
<p>It’s wrong because hitting someone is inherently wrong (outside of self-defense.) Hitting someone far smaller and in no position to hit back is even worse. It also does not work in the long-term but that is besides the point in my opinion.</p>
<p>I was not hit by my parents, I never struck my child. Clearly a well mannered human being can be raised minus corporal punishment.</p>
<p>My comment about manners wasn’t aimed at you, pugmadkate.</p>
<p>But I don’t think you really answered my question. Honestly, I’m prepared to be convinced that corporal punishment is inherently wrong–but just having other people tell me that they think it’s wrong is not that persuasive. Other people will tell me that the Bible advocates it–that’s not all that persuasive, either. I also don’t find it persuasive to tell me that spanking your child will turn him into Hitler–I don’t think I’m very much like Hitler.</p>
<p>Let me add this: this seems to be one of those subjects that seems “obvious” to people. Of course, it’s wrong to “hit” your child. Who could doubt that? Well, lots of people have, and do. Sure, many of them belong to religious groups that teach this–but that doesn’t make them obviously wrong.</p>
<p>Honestly, I find the results-based arguments more persuasive–the idea that corporal punishment teaches kids that violence solves problems, or that allowing it is too risky because so many people will not be able to control their emotions, etc.</p>
<p>To me, it began to seem very hypocritical. We told our kids it was not okay to hit-not okay to hit us, not to hit each other, not to hit other children. Yet then we expect that they will respect the fact that, after we said it was unacceptable to hit others, we were going to hit them? I just couldn’t reconcile the two.</p>
<p>“but just having other people tell me that they think it’s wrong is not that persuasive.”</p>
<p>That is why I referred you to a person considered one of the most recognized authorities on the subject. She has probably ten books if you don’t prefer her study of the Germanic people and Hitler.</p>
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<p>My husband and I raised one of each, and we certainly did not treat them the same. But I think that the differences were based more on their individual personalities than their gender.</p>
<p>Hunt, I think it’s difficult for me to be articulate on this subject because my parents never hit me and I never hit my child. So, yes, it seems self-evident. </p>
<p>I mean, you ask why it’s wrong and it’s wrong to me for the same reason it’s wrong to lock a child in a closet or hit them with a switch or box their ears. Just because it’s an allegedly calm parent using their hand doesn’t make it any less horrifying, in my opinion. To me, corporal punishment goes along with the idea that children are property, that children are not human beings with a self-evident set of rights including the right to not be harmed bodily (or mentally.)</p>
<p>I just fundamentally do not understand why or how it is good to introduce physical pain into a relationship that is supposed to be built on the deepest of trust. For goodness sake, I use positive discipline to train my dogs! </p>
<p>And I think my arguement against it would be much more difficult to make except that research supports not using corporal punishment. It does teach that “might makes right” and while it’s somewhat effective in the short-term, in the long-term it’s effects are not positive ones.</p>
<p>I tend to agree that ultimately corporal punishment does more harm than good yet I am curious about what pugmad said:</p>
<p>“To me, corporal punishment goes along with the idea that children are property, that children are not human beings with a self-evident set of rights including the right to not be harmed bodily (or mentally.)”</p>
<p>Where does it say in the ‘laws of our land’ that there is a “right to not be harmed bodily (or mentally.)”? Is there such a right?!</p>
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<p>Right and wrong are always opinions. Cannibals think it is right to eat humans. I think it is wrong. It’s an opinion based on reason. </p>
<p>Spanking is wrong because of the message it teaches the child. If the parent is angry, it is ok to hit. It is never ok to hit. Maybe Hunt’s parents are the exception who can properly punish a child without teaching hitting is ok, but the vast majority of parents who spank follow this procedure. They observe behavior they do not like, they tell the child to stop, they are angered or frustrated or disappointed when the child does not comply and then smack the child. Why does the child cry? Is it because the child suddenly understands how logical the parent’s analysis is of what constitutes appropriate behavior? No, its because it hurts. The parent has now hurt the child. What kind of parent hurts his or her own child? In my opinion a bad one. There are always other methods of teaching a child not to engage in certain behavior that does not involving causing physical pain.</p>
<p>“Again, I am astounded at some of the things you say”</p>
<p>-You are free to express your astoundings. I am very pleased to pull so much of your attention to my humble personal opinions. However, I have no plans to change them, my life experience is simply different from yours, but you are free to continue wasting yor time on critising me instead of simply contributing to discussion.</p>
<p>I think several of you make cogent arguments–but I will note that unless you’re a total pacifist, you don’t really believe that it’s never OK to hit anybody.</p>
<p>To me it comes down to the notion of a larger, more powerful being using physical force against a smaller, weaker one. I did not care to model that behavior for my children. </p>
<p>I like pmk’s, Nrdsb4’s, and razorsharp’s insights on this topic very much.</p>
<p>" you don’t really believe that it’s never OK to hit anybody. "
-I will hit anybody under death threat into the most volnurable spots of thier body too. I will alsotry to kill person who is trying to kill me if I could. I just doubt my physical ability, I do not have any moral obstacles of doing so. However, I believe that we are discussing our own children here, not strangers who are in a process of harming / killing us. I have hit my children and punish them in other ways, but it never worked, it made them and situation worse. The only thing that worked was bribes and spending time with them. They are adults and one of them is doing a great job raising his own teenagers. Apparently, my strategy has worked. However, I am not pushing it, everybody has their own strategies dealing with their children, I do not care, we just share here.</p>
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<p>I know a woman who swears that even if someone was trying to kill her and it was either her life or the life of her attacker, she wouldn’t kill. She didn’t have children at the time, and I wondered if she would seriously not defend her child to the death.</p>
<p>I, on the other hand would certainly defend myself against an attacker, but obviously that’s really not the issue here.</p>
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<p>Sorry, but saying the only way to make a child behave is to bribe them is just total nonsense, no less ridiculous than saying the only way to make them behave is to hit them. There is a whole lot of stuff in the middle which has been shown to be effective with children. Positive reinforcement is a great way to encourage good behavior, and sometime other methods are more appropriate.</p>
<p>Everybody bribes their kids. To deny it is ridiculous. MiamiDAP didn’t say it was the only way to make them behave - she said it was one of the ways. You never gave your kid a toy or a snack or let him watch TV if you needed a moment of quiet?</p>
<p>“you don’t really believe that it’s never OK to hit anybody.”</p>
<p>I find it hard to impossible to believe Hunt is pursuing this topic because his parents are being slandered or anything remotely related to that. </p>
<p>People are saying it is never OK to hit children (those smaller and weaker), and I believe there was discussion earlier in the thread about caning not being an acceptable form of punishment, ever. It is barbaric, just like the treatment of Islamic women and Taliban women.</p>
<p>Nobody has to claim to be a “total pacifist” whatever that is, to make you happy. We aren’t trying to avoid the Viet Nam draft.</p>
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What, your psychoanalytic powers tell you it’s because I’m a secret Nazi? It just gives me pause when people casually use terms like “barbaric” and “sadistic” for practices that lots of loving, thoughtful parents used very broadly until quite recently in this country. I also wonder what practices just about everybody accepts now will be condemned in this way in a generation or two–perhaps the “abusive” diets we let our kids eat. I’m not saying that the future generation will be wrong on the merits, either.</p>
<p>" saying the only way to make a child behave is to bribe them is just total nonsense, "
-As I said it was based on my experience, which is different from yours. It is nonsense for you, not for me, I have tried punishments, they did not work. Use whatever works for you, you do not have to use what WAS working for me, why do I or anybody else cares? They are just asking us to share.</p>
<p>Anybody else have a sense of deja vu?</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/863471-spanking-belt-felony.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/863471-spanking-belt-felony.html</a></p>
<p>I’m pleased that I said the same things then I’m saying now.</p>
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<p>MiamiDAP wrote:
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<p>Now we know that lots of people spend an enormous amount of time with their kids and yet never discipline them. You see them all the time, out with their kids, beaming at them as they raise cain in restaurants or the park or when they defend their lovelies at school when they are told their kids are bullies or misbehave. That leaves “only” bribes.</p>
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<p>We don’t bribe our kids to get them to behave. That gives them the impression that they are running the show and have to be coaxed with things to behave appropriately. Positive reinforcement, YES. Bribes? No.</p>