<p>Having started life as an ardent feminist, I was all for each party paying for themselves. Decades later, and a veteran of on line dating, I find myself falling into the camp of the man paying, if he is really interested. My sig other has gone through terrible economic times, and I have a decent job. I have realized that his insistence on paying for our first date, as well as always contributing at least something to a bill, has kept him high in my esteem for a long while now. It is a classy move, and I am happy to pay for the most part, but appreciate not being taken for granted. </p>
<p>When dating, those who insisted on to the penny split bills, were later noted to have a few character deficiencies as time passed. Generosity of spirit is what most of us want in a partner. </p>
<p>I’d also look askance at women who never at least offer to pay. </p>
<p>mom2c, I still cooked for men after a few dates. Makes more sense. My dad, back in his swinging mid life dating period would cook duck a la orange for women after a few dates. Though he said his cooking was often not reciprocated by the offer of another home cooked meal. Now I realize the women may have been intimidated. </p>
<p>Of course there are reversals - a couple may have the woman in the more protector/provider role and the guy in the nurturer role. But even in same sex couples, it’s rare to see identical roles in a romantic relationship. Usually one person takes the “yang” role and the other takes the “yin.”
When both are very much the same, they usually either break up or become just friends.
Before anyone asks, I have no studies to support this, just opinion based on observation.</p>
<p>You have to be careful with the cooking at home thing. I remember when I moved into a large city for grad school a guy from my class took me out to 3 or 4 very nice dinners - well above what the other guys on grad school budgets were doing. The dinners were over the course of a few months and we were not in any sort of steady relationship, but I wanted to reciprocate. So I invited him over to my apartment for a meal that I was going to prepare. Well, I didn’t even have a chance to get the dinner in the oven when he made a move. And it wasn’t a kiss. I just asked him to leave. I think he misinterpreted my invitation and in retrospect it was pretty naive of me to extend it in the first place. I think you invite them over for a meal after a relationship is established. </p>
<p>It was really uncomfortable seeing him at school after that. And a year later he asked me out again - can you imagine - the nerve of that guy.</p>
<p>I agree that the person who asks, should offer to pay. My guys have all been prom dates for any number of girls and their parents pay for everything other than the corsage and tux that my sons get themselves. I don’t “date” but I have male and female friends, and as a general rule, whoever asks pays, or if it’s a regular thing, we take turns, for something special we treat.</p>
<p>But the men of my generation often insist on paying for me even when I think it’s clear it should be my tab. And many of them are old friends, relatives, old contacts that I would not think of as chivalrous or that it’s a date of anykind. I ran into the guy who did some work on my house while standing in line for coffee, and he just picked up my tab today. So I think it’s a male sort of thing to want to pay for females </p>
<p>Harvestmoon, that’s why I often was happier with men that I asked out first. Your experience unfortunately was not that unusual with guys who are confident enough to make the first move. it’s like they think women are just * waiting* for them.
@@</p>
<p>I know that probably isn’t all that popular anymore.</p>
<p>Many men are quite proud of their cooking, and delight in showing off their skill. Conversely, it’s my impression that even if the woman is a great cook, she may not want to establish such traditional roles early in a relationship, and so is more likely to pay to go out, rather than have him over for dinner.</p>
<p>I know my oldest daughters husband is a good cook, and as he had been living on his own for a while when they met, I expect he had her over for dinner quite a bit ( and she him, except she had a roommate & he didn’t)</p>
<p>Some of us grew up with patterns that were far more restricted than what the millennials were raised with.
( we should know, we raised them!)
I think it is great, and it takes some of the burden off everyone to do what is appropriate for the situation, and not to have to wait to be asked, or always expected to host the outing.</p>
<p>I have to add that in high school, my kids went on group outings, where they each paid for themselves, ( most of the time)</p>
<p>Years ago, I had plans to meet some female friends for breakfast at a local restaurant that was known for great and modestly priced breakfasts. My dad was in town so they invited him. He picked up the tab. They didn’t expect him to, but that is the kind of man my dad was raised to be and he wanted to. I was a product of the feminist era, which may not have condoned this, but not all men were oppressing women. My dad didn’t and he encouraged me to do whatever I wanted to do. </p>
<p>I appreciate men who have these traditional manners, but I’m not a princess. I’ve opened plenty of doors for men, particularly at a local UPS store where sometimes guys are holding large boxes and I get to the door first. I think both men and women can and should contribute to relationships in whatever way works. I’ve known a few couples where mom works and dad is a stay at home parent- and that dad really has a more nurturing personality than mom does. It is what the couple works out together over time, but it is still very possible that he paid for the first date. I also really dislike women who take advantage of guys. I had a suite mate in college who did that and we all used to get angry at her for it. </p>
<p>Surely there are also guys who pay for dates and are total cads. But the formal dating rules are just the beginning of relationships and soon enough, people’s characters show through. One can have traditional manners, and also be egalitarian in a relationship. </p>
<p>Harvest, that’s story sound familiar to some friends of mine. Some men took that as a signal. It depends on the men. I watched out for class in men, not so much protocol or the Ps and Qs but things in general. It tends to be a good indicator for how I’m going to be treated.</p>
<p>“I think both men and women can and should contribute to relationships in whatever way works”</p>
<p>Yes, THIS. But it has to work for BOTH of them, not some invisible set of “rules” that the guy offers to pay or he’s a cad not deserving of a second chance. Not that he “protect” his date or whatever. Not that he call back within a specified time or he’s toast. </p>
<p>When I began dating again, I was looking for things that are not part of these “rules”. I wanted to meet guys who were confident-not in a he-man kind of way, but who knew who they were. I wanted a guy who was ok with my baggage, who could explain his. I didn’t want someone who hated his ex and who, if he had kids, cared about them. Whether he paid my way wasn’t even on my radar. </p>
<p>My HS is just beginning to get into the world of dating, and most kids go out in groups. They pay their own way, both boys and girls ask. The person who gets to the door holds it open. I like that. D’s own specifics include a guy smart enough to discuss life, the universe and everything intelligently, who is up on current events, who likes kids, has a sense of humor, and who has goals. That’s probably better than some adults look at potential dates. If she starts in on people holding doors for her or paying for her all the time, I would be worried.</p>
<p>I would hope both parties understand that first dates are meant to be a way for both parties to get to know each other without it turning into a financial interrogation of some kind or a therapy session for past woes.</p>
<p>I had experience with two different first and by my own volition last dates because they proceeded to turn that date into something akin to an IRS audit. </p>
<p>Some other friends and I also experienced some first…and by our volition last dates with individuals because the other party turned it into a long therapy session where they spent a critical mass/all the time unloading about their woes in life such as ex-es. </p>
<p>And it’s not limited to one gender as one of the worst cases I know of happened to an older female HS alum who dated a 50-something man who spent the entire date ranting about his ex-es and how they wronged him. My first thought…that man was AN IDIOT. </p>
<p>LOL I didn’t mean a financial interrogation. When a young man is in love, he will go to great lengths to prove that she means a lot to him. Taking on an extra job so he can pay for prom tickets or the fancy dinnet. Walking her safely home even if it means he walks back home twice the distance etc. Things that show the young lady that he kniws how to value her and ger happiness above his own comfort. He will slay dragons to win her heart. Its thiusands of years of cultural biology.
So while a guy is not obligated to pay for the first few dates, he’s throwing away a potential plus factor if he’s trying to woo a girl.</p>
<p>*Years ago, I had plans to meet some female friends for breakfast at a local restaurant that was known for great and modestly priced breakfasts. My dad was in town so they invited him. He picked up the tab. They didn’t expect him to, but that is the kind of man my dad was raised to be and he wanted to. *
In that case, it probably mattered more to your dad that he host, than it did to your friends.
But sometimes there are culture clashes too.
For instance this summer, my daughters inlaws ( who were from out of state), paid for all of us to go out to dinner.( about 18 people) I didn’t expect him to have taken care of it before we sat down, as we are much more casual in my neighborhood, and I anticipated us just splitting it.
But I wanted to do our part, so I made sure that when we went out for dessert, that it was clear we were paying. I realized they were older, and wealthier and from a more conservative part of the country, but I also would have felt like we were taking advantage of that, if we had let them pay for everything.</p>
<p>I think you can have good manners out and about without resorting to calling that traditional or untraditional.
Much of it just is common sense, like the door issue.
Whoever gets there first or is less burdened holds the door.</p>
<p>Re: ex issue.
We kind of “warned” DS that he should not be too close with his ex now, just in case his current GF may become suspicious or even jealous of them being together again. (They all live close to each other - actually in the same building.) This is because, according to DS, the ex tends to ask her friends (likely mostly male ones) favors relatively with ease even though the kind of help is arguably not very proper from some point of view. An example was that, several months after their mutually-agreed breakup, she would try to ask him to rent a car and drive her somewhere (even though he was busier than her) and even asked whether she could crash in his room for several weeks - even though she was fully aware that he now has a serious GF. We believe that his new GF will not be pleased if he helps her on either one (esp. the latter - shouldn’t she try to crash at her female friend’s place first?!)</p>
<p>I think he is very happy about his current relationship and has no intention to go back to his previous short-lived one (he was not treated well in that short-lived relationship.) So why risk it?!</p>
<p>"So while a guy is not obligated to pay for the first few dates, he’s throwing away a potential plus factor if he’s trying to woo a girl. "</p>
<p>Depends on the girl. Not all girls (or women) would find it endearing that a guy assumes she wants him to pay, or take the reins, or slay dragons. My niece’s favorite book as a kid was “The Paperbag Princess”. She slays the dragon herself. When my niece grew up, she bought her OWN house, worked her OWN jobs and pays her OWN way. And yet, she’s found a man. </p>
<p>It depends, I’m not comfortable anybody paying for me even as parent friend. For example, I went to a Girl Scout troop, I think it was Halloween, and this young dad, probably working at CISCO made tons of money through stock options and he paid a bunch of money for tickets to some rides and gave out the tickets. I had to chase after him to pay $50 buck, he was surprised, but I didn’t feel why he had to pay. I know he was being generous but I didn’t feel that it’s fair either way. At the time, my husband and I had jobs. Now if we were unemployed I might graciously agreed to but we weren’t.</p>
I think it is the same idea when a guy buys flowers or other gifts for his girlfriend or SO on special occasions. The main point is to make her feel that she is valued. (I heard DS would buy flowers.)</p>
<p>I’m sure it did mean more to my Dad to pay for breakfast, but that’s OK too. It gave him pleasure to do it. </p>
<p>I might also feel uncomfortable if someone took my family out and paid for a costly dinner, however, I could also assume that he/she chose to do it. Like you, I would have found some way to do a part, and if not dessert, I would have probably sent a thank you note with a gift such as bakery cookies or bottle of wine later. </p>
<p>I get not being restricted by dating rules, but I think all relationships and friendships that are going to progress use those rules as a starting point. The more important qualities are consideration and a sort of give and take. I have a long term friend and our kids grew up together. I’ve really lost count of who took the turn to drive, who took who out, who took whose kids out. It’s gone beyond socializing to being there for each other as friends. </p>
<p>That’s also how I remember the dating relationships that were also good friendships. One boyfriend took care of me when I had a reaction to some medication, checked my mail for me when I was out of town. I would pick him up if his car broke down and he was stranded.I’m sure there were more times when we helped each other out and also times we just went out to movies or dinner. The relationship didn’t last but there aren’t hard feelings and I remember him as a decent person and friend. I don’t remember who paid for who on all the dates. That wasn’t the basis of the friendship over time. </p>
<p>My MIL was well to do, but ALWAYS expected others to pay when she went out anywhere unless it was with some of her like aged female friends, and then they’d split the tab to the penny as to who ordered what and prorate the tip. She was the “southern belle” stereo type and was always grim faced any time she had to open up her wallet. </p>
<p>I think it is an outmoded custom. I’ve asked guys out a couple of times in my life and they always insisted on paying. I was never comfortable going out with someone who paid all the time. This was in the 1980’s since I haven’t dated lately!</p>
<p>That ex sounded like some “moochers” some friends have dated in the past. </p>
<p>The ones who are the most handsome/beautiful and are able to manipulate others by appealing to the “spirit of generosity” tend to be ones most easily taken advantaged of.</p>
<p>Thankfully, growing up in the crime-ridden NYC of the '80s meant I had to learn to outgrow that pretty early. </p>
<p>My policy is only to help out those who have had a long pre-established social relationship* with me beforehand with an occasional helping hand to strangers/acquaintances in a genuine emergency. </p>
<p>Also, I personally think it’s really tacky for an one ex to ask another for help…especially a serious imposition if the breakup happened within a few years and especially if the breakup wasn’t on the best of terms. </p>
<ul>
<li>I.e. We’re friends because we’ve had an established social relationship of liking each other’s company…not merely because we have some skill/are available to provide help at a “friend’s” beck and call. In fact, “friends” who act in the latter manner tend to be regarded by most folks IME as ■■■■■■■■ and if word gets around, we do our best to avoid their company.<br></li>
</ul>
</p>