<p>“In most states, a person who reports suspected child abuse in “good faith” is absolutely immune from criminal and civil liability. For that reason, most healthcare attorneys will advise a client “that it is far better, in theory, to be faced with defending a civil action for reporting suspected abuse rather than the bleak alternative of defending a civil action . . . if a child is injured or killed as a result of failing to make a report of suspected child abuse.” Mandatory Reporting: Hidden Dangers by Attys. Jennifer L. Cox and Jennifer A. Osowiecki.”
<a href=“smith-lawfirm.com”>smith-lawfirm.com;
<p>Thanks Nmom, but since it says “most” states, and requires a finding of “good faith” and still anticipates some sort of legal defense, I’d still check for coverage.</p>
<p>The other factor is that protective services can come in aggressively, take a kid out to a worse situation or the child gets scared in the face of an investigation, recants and is faced with retaliation at home. A teacher who has a relationship with a child might be able to keep eyes and ears open. It’s just a tough situation, but I personally would try the school first, to see if they were responsive. Others can feel differently.</p>
<p>I echo the responses suggesting a talk with the school counselor. He/she should be able to talk with the child and get a sense of what may or may not be happening.</p>
<p>Somewhat OT, but reminds me of my son when he was in 1st grade. The counselor evidently went to all the classrooms and did a little talk about her job and encouraged the children to please come to her if anything was amiss at home. (Guess she didn’t spell out what constituted a problem) Anyway, my son asked teacher to be excused to visit the counselor later that week. I received a call from the counselor and the problem he went to her about was that I was taking the younger children and doing “fun” things with them while he was in school–park, grocery shopping, library, etc. He was feeling left out. </p>
<p>It was somewhat funny that she was trying to open the door for abuse reporting and this is what he thought was a real problem. But for him, it was a problem and one we needed to address.</p>
<p>Bay,
All the more reason to go through the school nurse of counselor. You CAN remain annonymous.
mkm, You sound like a very good parent.</p>
<p>There’s all these great words of advice, but no one wants to admit the truth. The truth is, no one here, including the OP, knows what the truth is. So, run off and tell the world if you are that concerned about it. You don’t need anyone’s advice here. Are you just looking for some reassurance? Obviously, you have your doubts on whether or not to tell anyone. Maybe there’s a reason you have doubts.</p>
<p>For the other point; I said “USUALLY” grades come out 4 times a year. That is the norm for hard copy grades. Yes, many schools have online real time stats. It’s also true that many parents don’t keep up that closely on their kid’s grades.</p>
<p>Also, I said SPECIFICALLY that I used the word BEATINGS because it would draw a reaction because different people definite words and meaning differently. Thus, making my point of not knowing what is really taking place. If anything. But hey, if you don’t want to read what I wrote and the meaning behind it; and you want to make up your own context of my words, then have at it. It’s a free country.</p>
<p>And finally, to answer whether or not I believe “Smacking” a child is child abuse or not, and whether it’s OK, refer to the previous statement. No where did I say that it was alright to abuse a child. I illustrated the word beating so you could understand the point being made, but we’ve already established that you didn’t understand a thing being said and already had your mind made up about the situation. Even without knowing ANY FACTS at all. But to try and answer your question; Paraphrased: Is it ever OK to physically strike a child and not consider it abuse? (I purposely phrased it that way because undoubtedly some here will read into it the way they want it to mean). But yes; depending on the way you define the word, I do believe that there is a time where a “Spanking” isn’t child abuse. There’s a time when a little child keeps touching something that they shouldn’t because they could get hurt, and removing the object isn’t an option, and other means don’t seem to work, that associating them touching and a smack on the hand, would be appropriate and not considered child abuse.</p>
<p>But go ahead and read into all this as you wish. You’re allowed. I’ve raised 4 children at two different times. I raised my younger brother and sister who are 10 years younger than me when my parents couldn’t do it. One became a successful veterinarian and the other is a wealthy contractor. Both have been happily married for many years with pretty decent kids of their own. My daughter is a Junior in College and My son is getting ready to graduate High school with offers to more colleges than I know what to do with. Both have had excellent grades their entire life. Very active in sports and extra curriculum and we have a very tight bond in our family. None of the 4 got into drugs, alcohol, getting pregnant, getting into trouble, etc…I won’t even second guess my ability to raise children. I’m not perfect, but I know what’s been very successful. The OP asked for advice. I gave my advice. If the OP doesn’t want to take it and prefers someone else’s, then go for it. </p>
<p>It just astounds me how so many people jump to definitive solutions, and yet they have no idea of what the truth is or might even be. But of course some will rationalize this and say that the health and safety of the little girls over rides all other considerations. Believe it or not, it’s a lot of these attitudes that has created some very messed up kids. So many parents are afraid to discipline their kids (Discipline doesn’t always mean physical) because they are afraid that the neighbors or someone will call family services. The next time you are at the super market or Wal-Mart and some little ■■■■■■■ is screaming and having a temper tantrum and the parent isn’t doing a damn thing about it, you’ll know why. Either they believe in this silly notion that you can’t discipline their kid because it’s not good for them; or they are afraid to discipline their kid because of what some other adult is going to say to them or DFS. And yes, if the little one decides on having a temper tantrum in the store, they definitely warrant a swat on the butt. But I suppose that is also child abuse.</p>
<p>A friend of mine says she was rushing her kid to the doctor while her husband was rushing to join them. When the child said, “Daddy beat Mommy” (got there earlier), they had a lot of questions to answer, but isn’t that better than no one asking questions? As a psychologist, I always told teachers to go further or refer to guidance if a kid said, “I want to die” or, “I think he’ll kill me”. Sometimes it’s just a figure of speech. Sometimes it’s a real threat.</p>
<p>I worked at a summer camp this summer. There was a little girl (entering 1st grade) who lost a doll she had brought. It was checkout time, parents were coming, and I told her that I’d tell her mom, and that the two of them could look for it when she was checked out. She became hysterical, begged me not to tell her mom, cried, and pleaded. I told her it would be fine, her mom would understand, etc. She said, “No! She’ll hit me! She always hits me! She hits me on the back really hard!”</p>
<p>I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t want to cause problems for this mother (who I had met multiple times and seemed like a perfectly reasonable, polite human being) nor did I want to not help an abused child. The job made me a mandated reporter, but I was unsure if what she said fell under the things that must be reported. It was said in the heat of the moment, and I thought more than likely, this girl was not being abused.</p>
<p>But here’s the thing. There was a chance. And if I didn’t report it, if I didn’t say anything, and she got hurt - guess who is at least partially to blame. ME. For not saying anything. Not reporting it. So I told my supervisor, who told her supervisor, and they found (after reviewing the situation) that it didn’t need to be reported to authorities. But do I regret doing it? Absolutely not. You don’t “take chances” with child abuse. The biggest worry in child abuse is not protecting parents who may be innocent. It’s about protecting children who ARE innocent. So by default you assume the worst. You have to. That’s the only way you can be SURE that the kids who REALLY need it get help.</p>
<p>“The next time you are at the super market or Wal-Mart and some little ■■■■■■■ is screaming and having a temper tantrum and the parent isn’t doing a damn thing about it, you’ll know why. Either they believe in this silly notion that you can’t discipline their kid because it’s not good for them; or they are afraid to discipline their kid because of what some other adult is going to say to them or DFS. And yes, if the little one decides on having a temper tantrum in the store, they definitely warrant a swat on the butt. But I suppose that is also child abuse.”</p>
<p>Right… Giving a kid a “swat on the butt” prevents temper tantrums…not!</p>
<p>When my kids were young and had temper tantrums in stores, I told my kids that their tantrums meant that they were tired, and we needed to go immediately home so they could go to bed for a loooooong time.</p>
<p>I got lots of compliments on how well behaved my kids were in stores: This includes compliments on the behavior of my ADHD son.</p>
<p>"It just astounds me how so many people jump to definitive solutions, and yet they have no idea of what the truth is or might even be. But of course some will rationalize this and say that the health and safety of the little girls over rides all other considerations. "</p>
<p>Yes, many rational people do think that children’s health and safety would override other considerations.</p>
<p>Christcorp,
Many of the people in my extended family believe that a “swat on the butt” is the best way to discipline a child, but none of them would consider kicking a child anything less than child abuse. Kicking is way beyond a “swat on the butt in the grocery store line” and warrants a call to DSS.
Northeast, I used the nap thing too and found it to be VERY EFFECTIVE.
Luckicharmed, beautifully stated.</p>
<p>“But of course some will rationalize this and say that the health and safety of the little girls over rides all other considerations”</p>
<p>and what in the world is wrong with that attitude? that the health and safety of a little girl is PARAMOUNT to th feelings of some adults</p>
<p>if you look at my posts, I am pretty much not a coddler when it comes to kids, HOWEVER I am also one for looking at childrens safety, health and well being</p>
<p>and anyone who calls a CHILD a “little ■■■■■■■” loses total credibiltiy in my book</p>
<p>yes, I had kids who had tantrums, but i never hit them- and you know what, they had very few tantrums, i generally see the kids with the WORST tantrums are the ones whose parents resort to smacking them, and then when their kid HITS another kid, they jsut don’t understand</p>
<p>again, calling a toddler, who are usually the ones with temper tantrums names like that is just terrible and truely sad</p>
<p>If you know that the child is being kicked, then report it. If you don’t then don’t. Is that really that difficult to understand. Apparently so. As far as the temper tantrum goes; sorry, but the child does not dictate the rules. Just because they aren’t happy at that moment in time; for whatever reason, doesn’t mean that they scream and I or my wife has to give into their tantrum. Thats like picking up an infant or baby every time it cries. They learn initially through reinforcement. They can’t rationalize. But hey, do whatever you want. I can honestly say that so called spankings/swatting with my kids probably never happened more than a handful of times, and was never needed after about the age of 5-6. </p>
<p>Sorry if I think my kids are a close to perfect as 2 kids can be. Perfect grades; plenty of friends; active in many activities; solid in their convictions; very strong emotionally yet very caring and loving; very high moral standards; etc… and sorry if I’m proud to say that I and their mom had a lot to do with that. They grew up learning how to respect authority instead of fearing it. They are no prepared to be able to handle college and their real world at a job. </p>
<p>For every parent or psychologist that wants to say that spanking and such disciplines aren’t good, there are those that will disagree. I disagree. Although, when it comes to children, no 2 are the same. I’m not saying that the old sayings and ideas on how a child should be raised are better or worse than they are now. But the fact remains that the vast majority of us turned out pretty damn well. We weren’t shooting each other in school. We weren’t doing the types of drugs and causing the kinds of trouble they do now. We weren’t all getting pregnant at 15. We weren’t killing each other and beating each other senseless. We didn’t have all the so called disabilities and problems that many have now. So, what has changed. Too many children being raised by single parents. Too little discipline. Parents not at home raising their kids like they should be. We could debate this all night.</p>
<p>As I said, if you’ve got some proof that this little girl is being abused, then by all means report it to someone. If all you’ve got is 3rd party information from an 11 year old kid and you don’t know if any of it’s true; and that’s all you’ve got; then I think you need to back off until you have a better idea what you’re talking about.</p>
<p>P.S. I know that you and others will think be calling a child a ■■■■■■■ is mean and sad. That is OK. For what it’s worth, I specifically used that word to create a reaction. It seems that this whole topic has become mostly emotions and reactions. There are a couple of poster who aren’t so eager to jump the gun on calling authorities based on 3rd hand knowledge. Of course, the majority is all for sticking their nose into things that they know absolutely nothing about. You can see the emotions in the posts. I wanted to see exactly the kinds of reactions I would get. I used words like BEATINGS and it was taken totally out of context. I used many words and the same emotions stopped people from looking at the bigger picture. I specifically used the word ■■■■■■■ expecting the exact response I got. Don’t worry, I won’t respond any more on this topic. It’s by far too emotional and too closed minded by some people. Not all, just some. But then, I’m sure quite a few will believe I am talking about them personally so that reinforces my point. You all enjoy your evening.</p>
<p>how do you find if a kid is kicked or beaton</p>
<p>some parents are very smart</p>
<p>its like when a kid tells you they are bein sexually molested, do you wait for “proof”</p>
<p>no you don’t </p>
<p>and again, calling liittle kids bastards clouds anything a person says</p>
<p>that is harsh beyonds words and discusting at its core</p>
<p>I know I said I wouldn’t respond anymore, but you made an excellent point that needs to be commented. You said; "it’s like when a kid tells you they are bein sexually molested, do you wait for “proof”. Excellent observation. Now, go back to the original post. This little girl never told the OP that she was being beat or kicked by anyone. She got this second hand from her 11 year old who said the other 11 year old said it. Sorry, but that’s no good enough</p>
<p>its not good enough? really/</p>
<p>how sad is that,and it IS good enough to at least mention it to the childs teacher</p>
<p>Tell me, what Is “good enough”</p>
<p>bruises, death, broken bones- how bad does a kid need to be hurt before you would step in and tell someone what you heard</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Glad I’m not the only one. I also fail to see what the fact that (all) toddlers throw tantrums has to do with a child being slapped and kicked over grades and whether that should be reported. I see very few people jumping into emotionally driven agendas defending their entire existence and none of them are in the “report” camp. Just an observation.</p>
<p>I think it becomes a school issue because the alleged abuse is occuring due to what the mom perceives as a school-related failure with the daughter. It’s about grades, not back-talking, disobeying, etc. I’m just thinking, if the abuse really is going on, the poor kid is probably so stressed out over grades that it could be impacting her ability to concentrate on learning in the classroom - she’s probably more worried about what happens if she doesn’t ‘get it’ this time and make a good grade than she is about trying to actually learn the material.</p>
<p>While I don’t condone spanking of any kind at any age, I understand other parents choose to do so. I do think when a kid gets to be 11 years old, a spanking is totally inappropriate (even if it is just a spanking). Eleven year olds do not respond to spanking as a form of punishment. They’re old enough to have consequences related to the misbehavior (not saying the failing grades are misbehavior).</p>
<p>Do people really think schools don’t have any resources/never deal with problems of this nature? I’m seriously curious. This is very contrary to my experience. It is expected schools will encounter problems of this nature and parts of the “system”, so to speak, are designed around that reality. I mean it’s not like schools maintain counseling staff to look pretty, particularly at the elementary school level. These people aren’t advising college apps, folks. This is what they’re there for, and they generally are professionals. At the very least they should have more experience than most of us. In a lot of cases this is the counseling service any child has guaranteed access too. The most logical conclusion would be to alert the counseling staff to a troubled child. </p>
<p>If the system is so horrible in your state, then you should be changing it, not suggesting people continue to look the other way when confronted with abuse. That’s our real problem. Every time a child dies, people say, someone must have known, why didn’t anyone do something? Well here it is. Apparently we accept the unacceptable when it comes to defending the most vulnerable among us. Sure makes you feel great about yourself. We should all be disgusted. Not with the nameless people who are at fault for this and that. With ourselves.</p>
<p>[Unfortunately-</a> this story is shocking, but not unique.](<a href=“http://www.thenewstribune.com/932/story/93111.html]Unfortunately-”>http://www.thenewstribune.com/932/story/93111.html)</p>
<p>My training as an elementary teacher in NY State as a “Mandated Reporter” of suspected child abuse was very important to my work teaching children. It was
required of every teacher (not substitutes, however) as part of the teacher certification process. </p>
<p>The emphasis to us was, as teachers we did not have to judge or evaluate whether or not we personally believed there was abuse. We didn’t have to prove it or ask the child to prove it.</p>
<p>But if we had “reason to suspect abuse” (please reread those 4 words carefully!) we were mandated by law to report it on to our supervisor (usually the principal). S/he’d make the phone call to CSS, although in our school she often asked the school nurse or social worker if they had any other encounter with the child to add to the picture.</p>
<p>Point is: the reason to tell the school is they sometimes are hearing and assembling diverse reports from several sources. If they can put together a pattern, it helps them discuss it with CSS.</p>
<p>But only the CSS people do the actual interviewing of the child and parent, because they have special training about how to ask those questions. </p>
<p>Once I was asked to sit beside a child during such an interview and I was awestruck by how the young CSS worker asked a series of questions I’d never have thought of. Even the sequencing of the questions was important.</p>
<p>(All I knew that day was a kid I know well showed up in class with a new cut under his eye; when I asked him “what happened?” he began to cry…and said “Mom told me not to talk about it.” That’s exactly what I reported. By the end of the next day the CSS worker had assembled the truth that the Mom had closed-fist punched the boy in the face and her ring had cut open his skin. Why? The boy had answered the front apartment door and the Mom didn’t want him to do so, because it was a boyfriend she didn’t want to see. So to punish the boy for opening the door to someone he knew, she closed-fist punched the kid, aged 6.</p>
<p>What impressed me was that the social worker had a series of quiesions, and a pacing, to determine whether it was a slap, a punch, how hard, etc. etc. I didn’t know there were that many “kinds” of slaps and punches to distinguish! </p>
<p>You or I wouldn’t know how to get that much truth out of a child! But we are supposed to pass along information to those who are well trained to figure it out. They also have ways to figure out if it’s just a pile of smoke.</p>
<p>And if you think the child was taken away from the mom, think again! Weeks later when I asked the school social worker for follow up, she said the case was under some kind of advisement. That meant the parent had been visited by CSS and interviewed but “she sounded appropriate.” I was floored, and asked the social worker why would they expect someone who assaulted someone else to not sound appropriate to authorities. She shook her head sadly, saying, “compared to the kinds of abuse they see, that was nothing…” and it just didn’t rank high on the CSS list. But she did say that the mom was being watched for repeat incidents; and that in the school social worker’s experience, once a CSS worker shows up and has a “talk” with such a mom, that’s usually enough to stop the abuse (their real goal, anyway!). As soon as people realize someone is looking in on them, they are more guarded and careful, and this can only help the kids. Or, more likely, the caseload of the CSS worker is too tremendous to help a kid like this, living in a poor rural community.</p>
<p>Now that we live in upscale suburbia, let me tell you the abuse is here, too, behind closed doors, 3-car garages…and big smiles at the front door from parents. </p>
<p>So please just tell the school what you heard. For all you know, they’re getting other little pieces to put together. If yours is the only thing they’ve ever heard on the child, they’ll still be more alert. Let the school do its job.</p>
<p>WashDad, the reason schools are in on this loop is because they see the child more hours in a day than anyone other than the family. Also, you can’t educate a child well who is distracted or afraid of going home. </p>
<p>I know people hate the “big brother is watching” and “government interference” and all that, but the school is in a position to protect a child simply by being the place where so many eyes are open.</p>
<p>Best wishes to the OP. Don’t try to judge the comment, just report it.</p>
<p>If you don’t feel the school is responsive, you also have the phone and can call CSS yourself, but they sometimes listen better to schools. Mileage varies.</p>