<p>berurah - Of course. =) I am an advocate of permissive parenting, mainly because of anecdotal evidence (which isn’t really evidence, but still) - I know that I turned out very well with a permissive parent and never had my inevitable rebellion against my parents, while those with authoritarian parents did, and have either been kicked out or still live with their parents and hate them, work minimum wage jobs, might have graduated from high school, and steal to support a coke habit.</p>
<p>neverborn~</p>
<p>You make a good point and one I’ve used many times to justify why I rarely ban anything outright or require my kids to adhere to overly confining or generally illogical rules just for the sake of having rules. That said, I doubt anyone would tag me a “permissive parent” in the way that it is generally used. I am <em>VERY</em> old fashioned when it comes to the general respect I think a kid should show an adult, particularly a parent, and I DO draw the line at certain behaviors if I feel I have a good reason to do so. Because I don’t do this capriciously, though, my kids have never questioned when I have drawn that line or rebelled against any of the things I’ve chosen to be a stickler on…</p>
<p>Bottom line is…there are lots of ways to parent, and there are lots of ways to parent EFFECTIVELY. I’ve always been a BIG proponent of “To each his own.”</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>berurah: As an example, my mother never forbade alcohol, drugs, or sex. She educated me about them, told me what they are and why people do them. She told me that it would be unrealistic to expect that I never did any of these things. She told me what absolutely not to do: drink and drive, do drugs that can ruin your life with just one dose (crack, heroin, crystal), have unprotected sex as it can also ruin your life (pregnancy or STDs.) She really didn’t mind underage drinking in her house as long as no driving took place afterwards. As a result, alcohol, drugs, and sex were no longer the mystical forbidden fruit. I really didn’t care - I never went out and got mindblowingly drunk at a friend’s house when I was 16 and then drove home, I never felt the need to do coke when all the “cool kids” were doing it, and I never got in to the random STD hook up scene. </p>
<p>I’ve learned a lot from my mom, and believe parenting in her style is the best way possible.</p>
<p>Polite guests should respect the values of their hosts. If you were having dinner with friends who happened to be vegetarians, or have other dietary restrictions–no alcohol, no pork, whatever–you wouldn’t bring meat and wine to their table and say, “It’s OK, I always have this at my house. . .”
If you can’t do without meat or wine for one meal, you can always decline the invitation and pay for a restaurant meal. </p>
<p>Likewise, if your hosts (parents) are against unmarried couples sharing a bed, it is rude not to repect their values in their home. If a couple objects to separate beds, they can pay for a motel room.</p>
<p>Wow…what interesting reading…especially since D1 and I recently had this conversation in anticipation of her male interest visiting us after Xmas. Because he is from the east coast, D has visited/stayed with his family at least 3-4 times. And, yes, H did use the “under my roof” rule. I told her that I was not comfortable with the idea of them sharing a bedroom, but would be willing to consider it if her father was OK with it…NOT! 
Not to imply that we didn’t “trust” her…just that H has set the parameters. She seems to be OK with that…</p>
<p>I’m just stunned that a child who has any respect for their parents would even consider sharing a room with an SO in their parents’ home. </p>
<p>Of course if the parents aren’t married to eachother and premarital sleepovers happened with mom or dad with THEIR special friend, then the parents obviously have no moral objection and have a hard time justifying a double standard</p>
<p>Motherdear: Why does sleeping with a SO constitute disrespect? You are making a fallacious jump here.</p>
<p>
I completely agree with this, to a point. At a certain stage, after some time, however, your perspective may change. Forcing SOs to sleep apart may become stranger than just leaving them to their own devices. We are talking about sitting down and facing them over breakfast, after all. Do you want them to think that you had their boinking on your mind when they just wanted to get a good night’s sleep?</p>
<p>THis is going off topic a bit- but I can’t keep my opinion to myself
we are having different issues which overlap but… ;)</p>
<p>permissive parents while it apparently has worked for you neverborn, but some kids may need a little more guidance in forming structure for themselves, and so seek elsewhere for the external structure they didn’t find at home.</p>
<p>My mother ( my father died when I was 17- when my sibs were 3 & 6 years younger) philosophy was " if it feels good do it" and conversely “do as I say not as I do” and most memorably " if you say no to your teenage son- then he will turn… homosexual". :eek: ( well he isn’t gay-but he doesn’t respect women either)</p>
<p>My sibs both sought structure elsewhere, my sister became a devout Mormon at the age of 16, marrying a man 14 years older than herself as soon as she graduated high school, and my brother joined the airforce after his gas station attendant career did not bring him the status he longed for.
I while I didn’t have as much internal guidance as I would like, have always been too independent to be able to follow dictates of either the military or church, and so have tried to carve my own path, but it has not been easy at all. ( for any of us I think)</p>
<p>I think permissive parenting, very often slides into negligence in my so humble opinion.</p>
<p>That isn’t to say, authoritatian parenting, is much better, not giving kids a chance to make mistakes, because everything is so tightly controlled, and not allowing them to have their own opinion or a say, can make them prey for other more structured organizations like cults ( which I think kids raised permissively could also fall prey to), or not knowing after a while the difference between their parents wishes and their own, seemingly like the perfect child, but underneath depressed/resentful.</p>
<p>This depends on the personality of the kids however as well.</p>
<p>JUst by going by my behavior with my first, you might have thought that I was the perfect parent. One of the biggest issues I remember having with her, was when she was about 4 or 5, and I had gotten the clothes out of her drawer for her to put on for school. She wanted to get them out, so I had to put them back, and let her do it.
Seriously, that and my disappointment that she didn’t take after my husbands side of the family and be anal about organization ( well I knew I wasn’t going to be), were about the biggest challenges I had with her, made life fairly smooth.</p>
<p>But with a child that has to test boundaries just because they need to know they are there, permissive is not going to work. Because when they have to push and push to find walls, that is going to scare them and you.
Its ok to say, pick your battles, I have learned to be flexible with most, but safety, is #1 and not negotiable.</p>
<p>also on the dinner argument- lots of people have restricted diets, while I don’t expect vegans who entertain to necessarily offer meat, I would expect them to let their guests know, in advance, because some people really don’t consider they are fed unless they have some sinew & it at least would give them a chance to nibble before or after.</p>
<p>Hosts can also make an effort to find out about their guests special dining needs, ( although within reason), and try and offer at least one or two things they can eat.
BUt I also agree, that it is up to the hosts to decide what sleeping situations will be, but if their guests do decide to stay in a hotel instead, I would also expect that decision to be respected and not a point of contention.</p>
<p>( especially when those guests are adults- college students- I would expect them to respect their parents wishes, but not having older adults in the same room, when they are living together- * oh but that reminds me, I think in some states- if you are doing everything married couples do together- buying a house etc. you may be considered to have a common-law marriage*, kind of seems “*****y”, if it really bothered me that much, I would probably lie and say we were painting or something, and recommend a nice hotel)</p>
<p>( I also really have a problem with parents allowing things that are illegal like underage drinking-sorry I am not European & Ihave a strong conviction that mind altering substances are to be left to adults, unless dr prescribed like pain medication for a tooth extraction- I would also advise against tobacco use, it is actually more addictive than heroin, and affects a greated percentage of the population)</p>
<p>I also respect the guests who dont expect alcohol when having dinner with people who dont drink, I never of course expect alcohol at my Mormon sisters house, although I admit, never having coffee or tea available either, gets pretty old after awhile, some of my relatives would go down a lot smoother with a nice class of merlot.( or for some of them- three glasses)</p>
<p>But I have really irritated my own inlaws, without really realizing it, when I * didn’t drink- alcohol*, either before-with or after dinner.</p>
<p>My relatives rarely drank,and so I didn’t expect it, and although H’s family, would have mixed drinks before, wine with dinner & mixed drinks after, I really didnt’ like it that much so I would have milk or water. ( but it bothered them & kept making jokes that I actually was old enough to drink now)</p>
<p>I think there does need to be tolerance on part of hosts as well, if you are huge meat eaters, and your guest is a vegetarian, don’t insist on plopping a two inch piece of barely warmed prime rib on their plate-<<<<<<shudder>>>></shudder></p>
<p>This is an interesting thread you started CGM</p>
<p>emerald: Do not confuse permissive parenting with negligent parenting. There are permissive negligent parenting, but one does not necessitate the other.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>driver~</p>
<p>EXACTLY!</p>
<p>If you had asked me when my kids were little whether I’d ever go for this, I have shuddered in repulsion! Wouldn’t even have been able to fathom it. However, as our lives have evolved, as we ended up with three girls and three boys who often slept in the same rooms together (and still do at times), my perspective slowly changed. </p>
<p>Our house is <em>SO</em> full (8 family members and various others in and out ALL the time) that it is <em>VERY</em> difficult to get…ummmm…privacy around here. <em>I</em> can vouch for THAT <em>blush</em>. I can GUARANTEE you that the vast majority of what goes on in OUR house is SLEEP!! <em>lol</em> So, if my son’s gf is in his room at 1:00 a.m. and they both happen to fall asleep on the bed, should I go in and wake them up and tell them that this is NOT acceptable to me? I have chosen not to do this. THAT would call more attention to the whole thing than just letting it be, IMHO. </p>
<p>As I said, my younger kids think nothing of this. That might not last forever, but by the time they figure it out ( ) they will also know what I have taught with regard to intimate personal relationships–that they should NOT be casual or careless, that a physical relationship should be reserved for a truly loving and committed partner. </p>
<p>As parents, we all end up doing things we never thought possible, and most of us end up making more than a few meals out of our own words. 
Again, that’s why I believe SO strongly in a “to each his own” belief. Different things are “right” for different families.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>Berurah, have you made your perspective known to your son’s girlfriend’s family (I am assuming she is a teenager)? I think things go better when there’s clear and open communication on everybody’s part.</p>
<p>
Good point! This would absolutely <strong><em>NOT</em></strong> be allowed if the other parents objected. In fact, they allow the same in their home. If they did not, I would totally support their wishes here as well. ~berurah</p>
<p>Motherdear, I don’t see how my Ds who are young adults (I choose to think of my Ds as the young adults they are and not children) who are in a committed relationship are exhibiting any disrespect to me and my H by “even considering sharing a room” while in our, and by the way, their, home.</p>
<p>I don’t see this as a moral issue. I don’t think it’s unusual for committed young adults to be involved to the extent that they are sleeping together. It wasn’t unusual 36 years ago when I started college and it isn’t unusual today. This is how I approach the issue. My b/f, now H, and I lived together when we were in college, and frankly, I did not know one longterm couple who were not sleeping together. I don’t think things have suddenly changed recently with today’s young adults. My guess is that the generation prior to ours was probably doing the same thing! It’s unrealistic to expect that the vast majority of young adults will not be involved sexually prior to marriage, which is a related issue here because as many have said, it’s unlikely that anything much more than actual sleep is occurring with most of these couples being discussed in this thread. If someone chooses to avoid premarital sexual relations, I obviously have no objection to that. These choices are personal and must be made by each individual to suit their own beliefs and needs. What I do object to is the implication that those who do not believe that premarital sex is inherently bad are somehow immoral.</p>
<p>There is a lot of confusion in this thread. I included. I don’t think many of us are actually acting out of any coherent principle.</p>
<p>My wife and I were both sexually active at my youngest child’s age (17). I don’t encourage him to go out and have sex, but I don’t tell him not to, either. (What I tell him is longwinded and complex, but it boils down to it’s fine if you are careful physically and emotionally, and mature enough to take responsibility for both aspects.) I don’t think it would be per se immoral for him to have sex, but I wouldn’t give blanket approval either.</p>
<p>If he came to me and said, “Can I have X over to have sex with her in my room?” I would say, “WHAT!!??!” and generally freak out, regardless of what I thought about X. Should I? Probably not. Will the question ever come up? No way. Until he becomes a mere visitor in the house, he has plenty of time and space to sneak around without asking my permission, and I imagine that’s what he would do.</p>
<p>I guess I feel that there’s enough vapid sexualization in the world, and my role as a parent is to embody the superego a bit – to slow things down, invoke higher principles, etc.</p>
<p>The issue, IMHO, is not whether the couple is involved sexually and whether the parents can “deal” with the facts. For me, it is a matter of putting one’s parents’ comforts ahead of one’s own for one or two nights: making a big deal of something that needn’t be shoved down any one’s throat.</p>
<p>I lived with my boyfriend while in college. I did not sleep with him when I visited him at his parents’ house. Why? It was their home and that would have made them uncomfortable. It’s really very simple.</p>
<p>Has nothing to do with hypocrisy. If our parents had visited us in OUR apartment, I would not have changed our sleeping arrangements. And if they were not able to handle that, they could have found a hotel.</p>
<p>And others, who have other attitudes are free to do as they like. But my preference does not make me controlling, hypocritical, infantalizing, or any of the other alleged shortcomings!</p>
<p>I’m missing something here, because it seems so very simple to me.</p>
<p>
It is simple. It’s what feels right in your home.</p>
<p>What I honestly don’t understand is “Not Under My Roof” approach.</p>
<p>I understand that, for religious or other reasons, some parents feel that it is Wrong with a capital W for college kids (or any unmarried couples) to have sex. In that case why is it any less wrong if they do it elsewhere? (It was mentioned repeatedly, that “my house – my rules, if they want to share a bedroom, they can go to hotel”, etc.)</p>
<p>If I think that it is Wrong for my kids to use drugs or get drunk, it would upset me just as much if they did it at school, as if they did it at home. The fact that it would be done out of my sight would not make it any less unacceptable or any less disturbing for me.</p>
<p>I don’t think that everyone is saying it’s just fine under some other roof. I think the philosophy is more “I don’t think this is OK. However I recognize that you are an adult and I cannot control your behavior. Please do not flaunt this behavior in my face by in my own home.”</p>
<p>It’s not that doing it elsewhere makes it any more OK – it’s that we have the right to control what occurs in our own home.</p>
<p>I’m not asking for a poll–honestly, that would be TMI!!! But I do wonder how many parents here waited till marriage.</p>