Small vs Large music school / conservatory for Undergrad Voice Performance

College Majors Music Majors
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Hi All,

What are your thoughts about small vs. large programs for VP major for a UG student? They all pitch their respective sizes as advantage, to be sure:

  • Small (Oberlin, CIM, etc): you get to participate in opera productions, even lead roles, build your performance CV, no or very few grad students to compete with, etc. (The operas are UG-appropriate, of course.)
  • Large (Jacobs, SMTD, etc.): you get mentoring by grad students and they are excellent role models; harder or even impossible to get roles in operas because of the grad students, but that’s real life to you; and the quality of productions are much better, of course.

For context, our DD was accepted into several UG voice programs but at the end of the day we’re choosing between CMU School of Music (350 students) and IU Jacobs (1500 students). She is planning to double-major in VP and Psychology, so the rest of university outside the music field is important as well (and at IU she was accepted into the Honors College). We are not qualified for need-based aid, but with 529 savings we can afford the full price of Carnegie Mellon, while the Indiana University / Jacobs is giving some money to make it somewhat comparable to our in-state tuition (we’re OOS in Indiana). The teacher fit at CMU is the best out of all the schools she applied to !

Our concern with CMU is, well, it’s a great engineering and CS school, but voice? psychology? BFA degree instead of BM? Does anyone even know their music program? You don’t read much about it on this forum or anywhere. We loved the kids there, in both music and the rest of the school, the school vibe, and the voice kids all rave about their teachers! Oh, and you’re guaranteed lead opera roles by the school during your 4 years!
As far as the Indiana University, we loved Jacobs school and the music kids there, Jacobs is a great name, of course, we loved IU campus, but our biggest concern is that even with 6 operas a year UG students are not guaranteed even chorus spots! That’s real life, perhaps, but very sad! Plus, DD doesn’t know what she wants to do later in her life but knows she wants to perform in her undergrad years.

I apologize for the personal context taking too much space. And I would appreciate any advice on Carnegie Mellon University School of Music for VP. However, the bigger question that I think would benefit anyone is small vs large school for UG VP with their respective advantages and disadvantages. What does the hive mind think?

Thank you!

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Just noting on the Psych - both have extensive psych departments, not with just psych but other things like Cognitive Science, etc. It looks like Calc is required at CMU but not IU - if that’s an issue.

Congrats to your daughter on two fine outcomes.

Does being in the city vs. a town have any impact for her?

I don’t know if it will open filled out but I did 2025, Bachelor and Psych at CMU - it shows 48% employed, 39% working, 13% seeking with a 72% knowledge rate (23 students of 32 so a small program). Salary data is not listed as they don’t have enough but you can tell from the roles that they’re low paying. If I got the last 3 years, it’s a $55K median and $61K average.

IU shows 95% successful outcomes with a 77% knowledge rate. 49% working and 42% in school. The average was $42K while the median is $40K. Perhaps CMU students had a dual - I don’t know - but I assume you’re thinking they might not be employed in music, at least initially.

It does seem CMU’s program is small so you might want to look at course offerings for her interest - are they offered with regularity given the small base of students?

Good luck.

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First Destination (Post Graduation) Outcomes - Career & Professional Development Center - Student Affairs - Carnegie Mellon University

Outcomes: Career Prep + Outcomes: Walter Center for Career Achievement: Indiana University

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Tagging some voice parents

@Clara30 @SnowyJoJo @bridgenail

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CMU was recently discussed here. Compare Duke [$10k], Northwestern [$7.8k], CMU [$3.8k], Boston U [$7.4k] for music & public policy [no parent contribution] - Compare College Acceptances - College Confidential Forums The music program at CMU is well-regarded. Personally I would go for small. (At first I thought Oberlin was a possibility, and I would have suggested that!). Of course Jacobs is excellent too. Is she visiting these schools? Often that helps with the decision. Deferring to the VP experts here!
ps double major or double degree?

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In my opinion (and that of my professional musician kid) THIS is the key ingredient.

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Please message me with any questions—or shoot away here:). I have 2 vocalists. One (soprano) graduated from Jacobs with a BSOF degree in Voice and History and a Masters in vocal performance. My youngest (mezzo) is there currently doing a BM in voice. Happy to help you out. And just putting this out here because it typically isn’t what people think, but the yearly Voice performance class is under 20 students and that includes all voice types. My youngest’s class is 17. My oldest’s was 16. Just putting that out there because it tends to come as a surprise to those who have heard Jacobs is “huge”. My youngest’s bestie is doing the BSOF in voice and psychology which sounds like your daughter’s intention? And this gal has already had a chorus and a lead role in an opera as a sophomore…..

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Yes! Teacher fit is huge–especially at the undergrad level. So I agree with this but with a caveat–make sure that isn’t the only reason a kid would choose one school over another. Things happen. Teachers retire, move on, etc. At a super small school (I have no idea the number of voice faculty at CMU) there may not be a good place to jump should this happen. My oldest’s prof retired between her undergrad and masters and my youngest’s moved on after a year, but in their program there were/are lots of good options when/if that happens.

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My D23 is a five-year double-degree student at Bard College/Conservatory. She loves the personalized nature of the small liberal arts school and knows everyone! She is handling the rigor very well (BM voice, BA Written Arts, and a concentration in Global Public Health), but it would have been difficult for her to complete everything within four years. She balances 6-9 classes per semester with chamber choir rehearsals, daily voice practice, student-run musical theatre rehearsals, a job, and an unpaid internship off-campus.

FWIW, in 2023, when my daughter auditioned, CMU was known for their excellent soprano teachers. Indiana is highly ranked for psychology, but I think either school would be just fine. However, if your daughter is considering an advanced degree in either music or psychology, you may want to consider the more inexpensive program.

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My D graduated from IU with a BSOF (VP and theater) in 2015 so contact @musicmomtimes3 for more relevant information.

I’ll ask one question, however, that I think matters for her at CMU (in case my comments below become too long to read!). Has she asked the CMU teacher for information on what her graduates do after UG? How many apply to VP grad school? And how many get acceptances and where? It should be positive (note that not all will apply so it could be a small number). Still she should be able to point to a few students each year that go on to selective VP grad schools. If yes, CMU would be fine.

To answer a few of your questions:

BFA, BM, BSOF in VP…no big deal. If it’s a VP degree from a reputable school, no one will care about the alphabet soup.

For VP (opera performance), you will need a grad degree (which will not be free…so watching the money is important). The UG school will not matter as much as the grad school. Still, CMU would certainly be seen as a serious, reputable school (even if not discussed much this year on this site).

Best teacher - yes this is important. It could be a deciding factor. Still for VP, I don’t think teacher is the only important factor (as it seems to be for some instrumentalists). I would suspect by “best” you are talking about a “connection” as opposed to a teacher that would work with her on a specific technique for a Mozart soprano. Vocalists are young so they are often not at the level of “specifics for a teacher” that a violinist may be at. Still a nurturing teacher matters for a vocalist, particularly if she can develop your D to be competitive for grad school. NOTE: if she goes to IU, she’ll have a near automatic “in” to their grad program…assuming she works hard and is making progress. IU, to its credit, does seem to accept most of its UG students for grad school. Grad school acceptances are always more competitive than UG. There are fewer schools and many candidates.

As others point out, IU is a big school overall. But a VP class will be 20 at most. And, of course, some kids leave music…so maybe 70ish UG. Grad students aren’t so interested in opera chorus. They want principal roles (which a Freshman is NOT ready for). If you are a principal, you can skip the ensemble requirement (at least back in the day). The opera chorus is large for most shows…and full up with UG with occasional cameo roles. In fact, guys would often get paid to do extra opera chorus roles…as the school was digging around to find people to put on stage. My D got paid each year (sophomore on) to sing in the background of the Nutcracker. And my D had a principle role Sophomore and Senior year. She had a supporting role Junior year. And, Freshman year she was in opera chorus (great training ground to watch the big dogs…some with intl debuts under their belts). My D did have friends that did not get roles until senior year (mainly sopranos). She had one friend who had NO roles (she passed on the senior offer as it was small and not right for her). She stayed for grad school…started getting roles…and got a YAP at the Indy opera house at graduation (which is difficult to do). Her teacher brought her along carefully and to good results. IU “expects” you to excel so they will be “working a plan” with you.

There are other opportunities to do opera besides the “big stage” at any school. There are opera scene classes. There are student directed operas at a stage in town. With such a big school (and with grad students looking around for people to perform in their productions), you should really be able to find opportunities.

Still, IU is big, bold and competitive. You do need to compete for spots and deal with any disappointments…while a few classmates may be moving ahead at a different pace. CMU may offer a slightly less competitive environment for getting spots and may bring all UG along at a more similar pace…and that could build skills and confidence in a young performer…until grad school. This is what I have heard about smaller programs…so I can’t be sure 100% on CMU.

I think that they are both good options. It really is about fit…if the CMU teacher has some success under her belt for grad school admissions.

I hope this loooong response helps you as well as anyone else reading.

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And I will piggyback on the performance thing here. No, your daughter will not be the lead in every opera in undergrad at IU. She will likely at least be in the chorus a few times. She could have a role a couple times (better chance if she is a mezzo, 3 current sophomore mezzos at Jacobs have already been cast in roles, many men have). However, there are sooooooo many opportunities for other types of performance as an undergrad at IU–opportunities that actually line a kid up well for post graduation employment and/or grad school. As an undergrad my oldest (soprano) had the opportunity at IU to premiere a composition major’s new work, solo on a harpist’s recital, perform with op shop, sing in several opera choruses, perform a couple of featured roles in operas. My youngest (mezzo) who is only a sophomore has already sung on two doctoral conductor’s recitals, a masters composition major’s recital, and performed as a supernumerary in 2 MainStage operas–one as a dancer. And these are on top of their assigned ensemble performances, studio recitals, class recitals, etc. My daughters have actually had to turn down performance opportunities because they just couldn’t/can’t fit them into their already busy schedules. It’s just a different way of looking at performance I guess. But now out in the real world 2+ years, my oldest has snagged a position in the chorus of the Washington Concert Opera and serves as a section leader at a church. She also performs with symphony orchestras and in smaller opera and regional theaters. Very few vocalists are the stars of the show every time out there in the big post grad world. But with the right training and opportunities, can be well prepared for the types of employment opportunities they are most likely to encounter in that world.

That being said, I am not bashing any small school. That can definitely be a perfect fit for a lot of kids–for many of the reasons bridgenail mentions above. And since grad school is almost always in the works for a classical vocalist, there is plenty of time for a large program later. I don’t think your daughter can go wrong either way. It’s a tough degree and will keep her super busy (especially with the added double major). She needs to feel comfortable and like she’s set up for success whichever she chooses. If that choice ends up being IU, don’t hesitate to reach out. Been doing the mom thing there for 9 years–I also have a son who attended for jazz guitar;). Wishing you and your daughter all the best as decision day approaches!

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Yes! I think that you and I write a bit “passionately” about this because you see the comment…you’ll never get any performance opportunities at IU…and our experience and your experience is…there are TOO MANY opportunities. My goodness…my kid needs to study and sleep…while yet another master class is offered by some extraordinary person that you know your kid needs to meet…I felt exhausted listening to her schedule!

Yes, first semester freshman year could be a “bummer” if she’s competitive and doesn’t make opera chorus…but all she needs to do is tell her teacher…I need to make it next time and work on it. The teacher will get her there. I think most kids make opera chorus second semester…and probably all do sophomore year on. By sophomore year, she’ll be performing a lot.

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As others have written, these are excellent options, congrats!

Mine (male VP) was very close to saying yes to CMU but the studio teacher at Oberlin edged out the CMU studio teacher and it turned out to be the right choice for him. I do think he would have been fine at either school. Just want to slightly correct something about Oberlin in that the Conservatory is about twice as large as the CMU music department and I would not say that the productions at Oberlin are any lower quality than the larger schools at all- they are non student run productions if that is the perception- and they are rather elaborate and done at a very high level. The music directors in particular are high level and the orchestras sound fantastic.

Mine was very clear that he did not want to compete with grad students or wait until he was a third or fourth year to get cast. He wanted to perform and was told at Oberlin that the operas were chosen to suit the current crop of VP students and that has indeed been the case. They can start auditioning freshman year for the spring opera (auditions for the fall opera are held the spring prior so no incoming freshman will be able to audition before they start in the fall). I have done a little dive into the casts of a few of the operas at IU and while there are some underclasspeople cast, the vast majority are grad students. This would not have worked for my son, but I do note that there are twice as many operas produced each year, so that would mean more opportunities to audition, of course.

And, I absolutely agree that the driving decision-maker should be the studio teacher (bearing in mind that some teachers retire, take leaves, are gone throughout the year at other engagements), and then secondly the type of school that the student is looking for (size, region, etc).

Again, congrats!

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I am also an admitted vocal performance student facing similar questions! I visited CMU and although I haven’t been able to do a trial lesson with her, I have heard only glowing praise about Jen Aylmer, one of the voice professors there. The music school people had a super nice vibe and it seems like there are lots of opportunities for voice undergrad, and having such a strong musical theater program as CMU does also adds some additional opportunities and nuance to the vocal experience. Since CMU is a much smaller school of music, it might be easier to have a big-fish-in-a-small-pond kind of experience and be able to get more individual attention.

Jacobs is hands down one of the best voice and opera programs in the country, but from my research and considerations during my own audition process, I’ve heard that it’s become kind of a factory and it is almost impossible to stand out in such a gigantic program. It seems like big opportunities there are only really possible for the tippy-top best of the best; that might be your daughter, but especially with grad students to compete with, it can be very easy for even phenomenal singers to get lost in the crowd.

In the end, the teacher fit is the most important thing by far, but I would say if your daughter is even thinking about singing professionally, a smaller school might be the way to go. Even if BFA, Carnegie Mellon University doesn’t look as impressive as BM, Jacobs School of Music, the more important part of a resume is what you’ve actually done; did you play Tosca, Dido, and Susanna at CMU, giving you actual opera experience that would prepare you for a career and broaden your performance opportunities and skill sets while in college, or were you in the chorus for 2 operas at IU? In my opinion, it’s much wiser to prepare for a solo career and maybe end up in the chorus for a few years than to spend college in the chorus and suddenly think you’re going to be playing leads in professional operas. Even though CMU doesn’t have as much of a name and it does kind of suck that it’s a BFA instead of a BM, individual opportunities and attention there or at another smaller school/conservatory are going to be much greater than at an enormous school like Jacobs where it’s incredibly easy to get lost in the crowd. Also, there are plenty of grad students at CMU who would provide similar benefits to at IU, and one of the most helpful conversations I had while I was visiting there was with a mezzo master’s student who was able to give me the rundown of the whole voice program and everything. Also, I feel like having fewer grad students doesn’t really matter if it means you’re getting more attention from the actual professor… which is who you’re paying to go there and study from anyways.

As for psych, I feel like a psychology degree can’t be THAT different anywhere (maybe that’s just me, though), and CMU actually has quite well regarded social sciences as well with lots of research and interdisciplinary opportunities (I’m planning on double majoring in Public Policy).

Overall, even though IU has the rankings and the name to go with it, I would ultimately choose where she personally is going to have the best learning and performing experiences and opportunities, which, based on my experience as well as what you said about having a great teacher fit at CMU, is probably CMU. It’s all about fit, and being a standout performer coming out of CMU who’s been able to do a lot of interdisciplinary work and have lead roles in operas as an undergrad is going to be a lot more impressive and give her a lot more unique experience than a middle-of-the-pack Jacobs student. Good luck on y’all’s decision, and who knows, maybe your daughter and I will both pick CMU and we’ll see each other in the fall!

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Thank you for the link, it was very helpful to see at least some mentions of CMU on this forum.

We did tour all the schools, and had many trial lessons, too.

DD has been accepted to Oberlin as well, both conservatory and college, but she doesn’t see herself there for several reasons. So Oberlin is out. But we did like the conservatory and know people who are happy there!

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This is a very good point, actually! Many small schools have only a couple of voice professors, so it’s that type of risk.

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Yes, this seems to be our case, too! Our DD doesn’t know if she wants to be a career musician in the future; she actually does want to pursue psychology and has some very concrete ideas in mind. Yet, she does want to learn music at a conservatory level (i.e. BM syllabus not BA) and does want to perform during her undergrad, which is why she doesn’t want to compete with the grad students. So, the smaller school seems a better fit for her.

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Apologies, I know some small school productions are excellent, such as that at Oberlin! Yet, my understanding is smaller schools with mostly undergrad students will produce early operas that don’t require full orchestras so the students could sing over the instruments. Or would tailor the production to the voices they have. This is great for undergrad students who want to participate from the get-go, such as your son or my daughter!

On the other hand, large schools have a luxury of producing what they want knowing that they have enough potential cast for any roles they need. They can produce Puccini, Verdi with full orchestras and have enough grad students to sing the lead roles. Or, perhaps, they tailor the operas to their grad students as lead roles. In any case, the voices of grad students are obviously stronger and more developed, so wouldn’t it affect the quality of productions? Perhaps, not in that one is better than the other, but just different, no? This grad student focus is a negative for my daughter, of course, but I see how participating in the full scale opera even as part of the chorus could be very educative!

Hmm… So, I guess, that’s the difference between the small vs large conservatories, then.

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Thank you @musicmomtimes3 and @bridgenail ! These are very good insights. I wonder if all large schools are similar in that they focus on grad students: Jacobs, UMich SMTD, BU… I guess, if they have large grad programs, they have to.

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CMU seems to have 4 or 5 voice teachers. Their education and performance background look pretty impressive. Their students careers equally so, at least based on CMU pages of those professors.

The private lesson my DD had with one teacher was excellent, we loved her! The professor also mentioned the faculty is very friendly with one another and supportive of one another’s students. The voice kids we talked to also raved about all of the voice faculty!

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I don’t know about that. I feel like the onus of pursuing an advanced degree should fall on the student. Definitely in music.

Perhaps, I’ll change my mind in 5 years or so. :slight_smile: