No. They went TO because students couldn’t get to a testing center.
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No, the went test optional due to test date cancelations during covid. Then they decided to continue for a few years as an experiment.
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The Yale policy makes more sense than the Dartmouth policy to me : it allows for a national benchmark of the student’s choice.
However I’m not sure how it’ll work for IB students since predicted scores aren’t accepted and the exams are in May (senior year).
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The comparison to historically test optional schools is interesting. I suspect that internationally known Ivies like Yale may be in a different boat than a Bowdoin or a Bates. In the absence of clear disqualifying test metrics, many candidates may decide to give a Yale application a try because it’s Yale and why not. At least they can say they applied to an Ivy. Yale has said that they have experienced a dramatic increase of plainly unqualified applicants. They probably felt that this flood was jeopardizing their admissions operations (including their ability to identify qualified underprivileged kids, as you mention), and that they had to take action. A Bowdoin or Bates may have also seen some application increase, but probably not to the same extent.
I also suspect that being one of a couple of test optional schools in a test mandatory world (as Bates and Bowdoin were for a long time) was a very different ballgame than what we have seen since Covid.
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No. Nearly 1,000 four year schools were TO prior to Covid. The ones that went TO because of Covid did so because test centers weren’t open. There are relatively fewer test centers still today, and the number of students taking the SAT still significantly down compared to pre-covid.
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In what was released today, Jeremiah Quinlan, dean of undergraduate admissions and financial aid at Yale, went on the record and said, “However, we have further found a statistically significant difference in average GPA between those who applied with and without test scores.”
I guess there is free speech in the college climate that exists today.
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Interestingly, this would seem to more support AB/IB than ACT/SAT. And while they say any is fine to satisfy the actual requirement, in the podcasts I have listened to so far (I am still getting through them), they seem to be suggesting to address specific issues or validate specific interests, it might be helpful to have specific test scores. That said, they also talked about subscores in this context, and generally they also talked about advanced classes in some high schools, so I think (reasonably) they are suggesting there are many possible ways of demonstrating relevant abilities and knowledge. But they want to see at least something relevant, and exactly what is most relevant may depend on the applicant.
And then just to complicate it further, they also remind us that Yale is in the liberal arts tradition so they also want to see you are well-qualified all around.
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“Put down… the book… George. You’ve already thrown enough to make your point.”
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I think test optional before Covid is very different from after. The biggest issue is the grade inflation that occurred at many schools (and has not subsided). The UC study on standardized tests had already noted that grades were becoming less predictive in recent years and Purdue said the same when it returned to requiring the SAT. The other is the increased volume of applications. It’s likely a lot harder to review 20, 30 percent more applications with less data points for some applicants. Maybe the colleges have learned starting a non profit is not a substitute for a solid test score.
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Agreed. But note that IB scores can not be predicted per Yale’s new policy, and most IB tests happen at end of senior year…meaning an IB student would have to take a gap year to apply with actual IB test scores to Yale. Thinking this will be a very small number of students.
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I note there was also a conversation involving Tulane where they discussed this and the Tulane officer was explaining how they were starting to look more seriously at AP scores and not just grades in AP classes as a response to perceived grade inflation.
I think that goes along with this being a test-flexible policy where AP and IB are options, and indeed in the Podcast they said had internal studies to support them being options.
I disagree. AP/IB doesn’t test foundational knowledge. It actually tests content knowledge. If you have a solid understanding of algebra 2, good quantitative reasoning, strong reading comprehension, you do general well on the SAT. Colleges can work with that.
Yes, and same for APs, you need them by the time you are applying.
Again, I am listening to the Podcasts as we are discussing, but one thing they made clear is if you don’t have APs or IBs available–and I agree many will not at the time of applications, or at least not the ones they really want to be used–then you can just do it what they called the “old fashioned” way with SAT/ACT scores.
We’ll see how this shakes out, but I am already thinking of the difference between schools where things like taking Calc BC as a sophomore or junior are common for top STEM students, and schools which may not offer it at all, and how if applicants from the latter then only have the ACT/SAT to fall back on, will that REALLY be just as good?
But that is getting rather ahead of ourselves.
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Yes, but many more students have AP scores from 9th-11th when applying. Only a few will have one or two actual IB scores from 11th…the vast majority of IB scores are from 12th grade tests, available in July after senior year.
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I think economically disadvantaged schools are the least likely to offer APs and IB, so I don’t see this helping that demographic particularly.
So I don’t know if that is consistent with what I just heard in the Podcasts, in the sense Yale at least seems to think some applicants would benefit from having tests in subjects that specifically align with their interests. As I was just noting, they do say they will understand if that is not an option for you, such that you can only go with the SAT/ACT (including subscores). But I don’t know if it will turn out that is exactly what Yale really wants from all applicants, which means even with the benefit of contextual review it could still disadvantage some applicants.
I agree, but obviously overall the policy is explicitly flexible, and they are prepared to be very contextual. So these are more just questions in my mind.
Like, which is actually better, a 1450 SAT/ACT when that is way above the normal range for your HS, or 5s in Calc BC, Physics C, and US History by the time you are applying from a highly-resourced HS? And does it matter how that actually fits with your academic interests–like, say, if you are expressing an interest on Physics or Engineering? And so on.
I didn’t listen to the podcast, so I don’t have your perspective on this. I’m off to listen…
I note I think with this being test flexible and there being so much information dropped at once, it is going to take us all a while to really process what it all means. And it might well be an ongoing conversation for quite a while.
By the way, another thing I was sort of suspecting and they kinda confirmed is the rapidly rising volume of international applicants has become a significant consideration in all this. This again is me reading between the lines a bit, but I think while they definitely want internationals to apply, one of the things they are thinking is internationals really need to understand they somehow have to show Yale they are actually well-prepared for a US-style liberal arts college, and scores on US-style tests was maybe all but required for that purpose for many internationals anyway.
Assuming you actually want to know, there are a bunch of subs on reddit that are mostly trafficked by faculty. The participants are not verified as such but many comments pass the sniff test (and many posters are verified in other subs e.g. askhistorians). There are also several closed groups on FB which do require verification. My cousin is a tenured prof and regularly sends me choice screen shots.
And yes they are complaining mightily about what they say is an obvious and meaningful drop-off in student preparedness, both in general over time and accelerating badly since 2020.
Some blame TO, others grade inflation, or softening standards in general, etc. Obviously covid learning (“learning”). Is it a riot? A revolt? I don’t think the specific descriptor matters. It’s fair to say that a non-zero and growing # of profs seem to be saying it’s a bad problem and getting worse.
I’ll add that participants in various ‘teachers’ oriented subs on reddit (K-12) are similar in their observations and complaints. In fact if I had to compare I’d say that the canary in that coal mine is chirping even more loudly than the ones on college campuses.
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