<p>
No, m2ck, hate him. It’s kind of a rape of sorts…</p>
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</p>
<p>Absolutely.</p>
<p>No, m2ck, hate him. It’s kind of a rape of sorts…</p>
<p>Actually, I was going to say that it’s a kind of rape in my post, but I was afraid that someone might be insulted. But, I do think that in such a situation, where a women feels that she has to go along with the sex act for fear of saying “no” and further angering him, then it’s essentially rape…because full consent isn’t there. </p>
<p>And, if that’s so, then we need to move past the idea that "for men sex is just physical and they don’t (want to) understand that for women it’s emotional " because then that would lead to this kind of situation.</p>
<h1>*Is it really possible for a person not to know how ugly they’re behaving? </h1>
<p>Absolutely. *</p>
<p>That’s amazing. I wonder why? Denial?</p>
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</p>
<p>Off topic but I’m convinced that unrelenting stress is the cause of most major illnesses. It’s just a gut feel for me. I’ve seen person after person who lived in a state of chronic stress for years (doesn’t have to be a bad marriage, could be work stress, money stress, chronic lack of sleep, whatever) come down with cancer, heart disease, an autoimmune disease. Some of these people were very good about exercising, watching what they eat, etc. Chronic stress was the one common denominator. I’m convinced my husband’s MS was either caused by or exacerbated by his workaholic, type A, high stress tendencies.</p>
<p>Back to the regularly scheduled program…</p>
<p>
Yes. My husband can be this way, although he has come to know now that it has to be resolved and is working on it.
My husband is the nicest guy in the world, everyone loves him and would swear that he doesn’t have a temper. That was true for most of his life, but he got a job in a union situation with all big, beefy, manly men. They all mark their territory and there is an aspect of the union contract that controls one’s work schedule every day and how much money one makes on that particular day. It’s all about “I got you beat” and they are always jockeying for position, fighting with each other, knocking each other off the board, etc. This brought out the worst of my husband’s hyper-competitive nature and he brought it home. To the point where he had to have everyone beat on every small thing. Do I want chicken and you want pork? Well I’m bigger and louder than you are, so chicken it is. Much of it was directed at me because he is a foot taller and 140 pounds heavier than I am, and after a while it became a pattern because he could end every disagreement by acting like a drill sergeant. Picture that. A small woman with a very large, very loud man totally in her face and you have the dynamic. I called it bullying, which it is, and he didn’t see it at all. The reason he didn’t see it is because his perception of himself as a sweet, easygoing, funny guy was set long, long before this pattern of behavior developed, and it is very hard in middle age to change that perception. It took a lot of work to get him to understand that he did this and could do this only because of the physical size difference, which carried an implicit threat, and made me powerless to stop it. He isn’t perfect, but he has come to really understand that this isn’t the kind of person he wants to be and has it in his power to change. He still is much too inclined to go from zero to 100 miles per hour of anger over stupid things, but I can see him trying and he has a real understanding of how the wild animal mentality of his job has really changed him. We are working on helping him not to bring that home anymore. So yes, it is possible for someone to believe something about himself that has no current basis in reality.</p>
<p>*So yes, it is possible for someone to believe something about himself that has no current basis in reality. *</p>
<p>So, I guess America needs a few “Dr. Phil home cameras” in their homes so some people can see the “real me.” I guess some would watch the results and learn, and some would be so entrenched in their “mythical self” that they would refuse to watch the recordings.</p>
<p>^^^^^There have been several “update” shows on Dr. Phil where previously belligerent, unremorseful people have said that it wasn’t until they watched the show at home that they realized how awful they looked, and how horrible their behavior actually was. I think once they sit still in the solitude of their home, knowing that everyone they know is probably also watching, they are forced to look at their behavior subjectively.</p>
<p>Most of these guests made at least some attempt to improve their behavior after those shows.</p>
<p>“I do think that playing the ‘observer’ is a good start. You have to realize that a lot of what your husband is doing is about him, not you. As such, you really don’t need to get caught up in the drama.”</p>
<p>This is such good advice for dealing with all kinds of difficult people in different circumstances, whether it’s a judgmental co-worker, whiny teenager, etc. I’ve told some of my advisees to imagine they’re hearing Charlie Brown’s teacher when the ranting begins: wa, wa wa, wa wa. It’s just noise, a weird trombone sound with no content. When the wa-wa stops, you can move along or respond with some neutral reply that fits any circumstances. Try not to even hear the actual words, and that way you won’t get tied up in responding to some drama that doesn’t even matter.</p>
<p>*I’ve told some of my advisees to imagine they’re hearing Charlie Brown’s teacher when the ranting begins: wa, wa wa, wa wa. It’s just noise, a weird trombone sound with no content. When the wa-wa stops, you can move along or respond with some neutral reply that fits any circumstances. Try not to even hear the actual words, and that way you won’t get tied up in responding to some drama that doesn’t even matter. *</p>
<p>ROTFL…</p>
<p>Gosh, if these victims could just do that. 
And not to “hear” the actual words…just kind of have yourself in your “happy place” and tune it out. </p>
<p>That said, I did once observe my BIL be very unfairly rude to my SIL and she did “tune him out.” His response was something along the lines of: “you know I’m right, which is why you’re not responding. Silence is golden.” Hopefully, his response was just a defense mechanism and not a true belief that she really didn’t have a response. I think if he were to ever be recorded and watch it later, he’d accuse my SIL of “setting him up” to make him look bad…even if he knew he was being recorded. </p>
<p>*There have been several “update” shows on Dr. Phil where previously belligerent, unremorseful people have said that it wasn’t until they watched the show at home that they realized how awful they looked, and how horrible their behavior actually was. I think once they sit still in the solitude of their home, knowing that everyone they know is probably also watching, they are forced to look at their behavior subjectively.</p>
<p>Most of these guests made at least some attempt to improve their behavior after those shows.*</p>
<p>That’s good to hear. Thankfully, there are people “brave” enough to watch themselves and be open to having their bubbles burst.</p>
<p>My daughter had a teacher who was just horrid. She didn’t grade fairly, she had faces, she was inconsistent, and you never knew what she wanted. What my daughter did was to ask her to clarify exactly what she wanted and my doughtier would write it down in front of the teacher. What this did was put the power with my daughter not the teacher. </p>
<p>I would almost turn this on the ops husband. If he complained about how stuff was done, where stuff was placed, etc. I suggest the op say, bob, I see that you don’t like where i put the coffee cups, that you like the toliet paper this way or that, and i just want to be perfectly clear. But do it from a place of power, not that you are asking for permission or approval or deferment, but to the point of overkill. And while i think sue should do the research with regards to her leaving, getting legal advice etc., at this point she needs to just get through it. and the only thing that will keep her sane is to hold onto her sense of humor and letting go his anger. It’s tough. I know. But the op needs some strategy to get thrugh each day. I would almost just play it up. Laugh. Realize how absurd her husband is. And know that if she wants to maintain her dignity, her self worth, her value, she can take back herself and play a game with him. When he comes home, go for a twenty minute walk. If he complains, say nada, don’t defend, don’t worry about it. Enjoy your knew room. Buy yourself a wee something for it, even just a single flower. If he asks why you aren’t sleeping with him, say, you obviously don’t like or love me, so why do you expect me to have sex with you. This advice is confusing imknow, but there are a few strategies that the op can pick and choose from. But my main piece of advice would be to not take intenrally his venom, but to put a healthy shield around herself, and if that’s playing to his absurdities by asking him exactly where he thinks the sat and peper should be, where the fry pan sho.d go etc. Make it a reverse gas light. It’s not surrendering, it’s taking back control. Expect nothing from him. Take car of oneself. If and when she leaves she wants to be a whole as possible.</p>
<p>*What my daughter did was to ask her to clarify exactly what she wanted and my doughtier would write it down in front of the teacher. What this did was put the power with my daughter not the teacher. *</p>
<p>I think I do something similar with my H who often insisted that I didn’t tell him something or whatever…I email him the info, ask him to reply, and save his responses in an email file! Believe me, there have been more than a couple of times when he’s said, “You never told me about that (social engagement or whatever)” or “I never said that I would go to that.”…and I pull up the email with his response. Saves a lot of huffing and puffing and “he said, she said.” </p>
<p>I now do this with a lot of important stuff that I’m not sure my H is really “listening” to what I’m telling him. My H has a terrible memory for these kinds of things, so having a record is awesome!!!</p>
<p>Doing the “wa-wa-wa I don’t hear you” really doesn’t work with someone who is determined to get in your face.</p>
<p>
True, Snowdog. H used to say things like “DO YOU HAVE A RESPONSE TO THIS?” “MAYBE YOU’RE JUST TOO INCOMPETENT TO EVEN RESPOND”, etc. Even though I generally would not get into shouting matches with him, it was hard to ignore altogether.</p>
<p>*H used to say things like “DO YOU HAVE A RESPONSE TO THIS?” “MAYBE YOU’RE JUST TOO INCOMPETENT TO EVEN RESPOND”, etc. Even though I generally would not get into shouting matches with him, it was hard to ignore altogether. *</p>
<p>Yes, that’s very similar to what my SIL’s H said to her when she didn’t respond to what seemed (to me) to be a taunt. A few times I’ve thought back to that time and have wondered what words she could have said to “shut him up” or put him in his place. This kind of behavior is just plain bully-behavior.</p>
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</p>
<p>These people are bullies. They don’t want to be ignored. They want to fight, and win. </p>
<p>H would say something like “I’m planning on going into the city tomorrow. Do you need the car?”</p>
<p>Me: (carefully neutral) “No that’s fine. Where are you going?”</p>
<p>H: (exploding in anger) “I don’t have to explain myself to you!”</p>
<p>So next time he says that, I would just stop at “that’s fine”. His response: “Why are you so angry?”</p>
<p>Me (protesting): “I’m not.”</p>
<p>Him (infuriatingly calm and quiet so my voice sounds loud by contrast): “Then why are you yelling?”</p>
<p>I could go on and on, but it’s too depressing.</p>
<p>Even people who would not qualify as abusive can have domineering characteristics. People who are somewhat aggressive, or competitive, can have habits which are designed to bend others to their will. So, some of this discussion could be instructive to people who have one of those people in their life.</p>
<p>“Doing the “wa-wa-wa I don’t hear you” really doesn’t work with someone who is determined to get in your face.”</p>
<p>It works better than trying to reason with him/her. I’m not saying it’s easy. I’m not saying most people can achieve true detachment where the words have zero impact. But it’s a good goal to work towards and can become a good survival technique if you can’t escape a bully’s rant. Arguing with someone who’s in the midst of a tantrum – whether a toddler or a grown man – escalates the tantrum every time. Whatever you say becomes ammunition to hit you with.</p>
<p>I wish I had worked harder at disengaging when I had an abusive boss. I felt so much better once I realized that I had no control over whether or when I got fired, and that her fits weren’t really about me or my work. I still heard her words, but when I thought “wa wa wa” while she screamed, it made it a lot easier to deal with.</p>
<p>In my case, most of the rants are repeats, almost word for word, of previous rants. So thinking “wa wa wa” might be really helpful to me, as I’d like to tune out the words.</p>
<p>*These people are bullies. They don’t want to be ignored. They want to fight, and win. </p>
<p>H would say something like “I’m planning on going into the city tomorrow. Do you need the car?”</p>
<p>Me: (carefully neutral) “No that’s fine. Where are you going?”</p>
<p>H: (exploding in anger) “I don’t have to explain myself to you!”</p>
<p>So next time he says that, I would just stop at “that’s fine”. His response: “Why are you so angry?”</p>
<p>Me (protesting): “I’m not.”</p>
<p>Him (infuriatingly calm and quiet so my voice sounds loud by contrast): “Then why are you yelling?”</p>
<h2>I could go on and on, but it’s too depressing. *</h2>
<p>Such a mine field! And, these people probably truly believe that they’re not “touchy”. </p>
<p>Gosh, you really have to come up with phrases and use tones/expressions that really can’t be twisted. In response to: “I’m planning on going into the city tomorrow. Do you need the car?” Something like: “No. Are you going very far - I don’t know if there’s much gas in the car.” </p>
<p>I find these situations incredibly odd because we can guess that if the wife had said, “yes, I need the car,” the H would have asked where SHE was going to go…and he’d freak out if she responded with, “I don’t have to explain myself to you!”</p>
<p>Seriously, I think in these situations, the victim needs to say something like, “I’m going to write this down in detail and date it, so when the situation is reversed, I’ll pull this out to show you the hypocrisy. Or, it least gives me permission to respond the same way.”</p>
<p>*Even people who would not qualify as abusive can have domineering characteristics. People who are somewhat aggressive, or competitive, can have habits which are designed to bend others to their will. So, some of this discussion could be instructive to people who have one of those people in their life. *</p>
<p>Years ago, when I would send my H to the store for an item, if I tried to give him too much info (such as…this is what it looks like, it can be found in the back of the store, etc), he’d complain that I was treating him like a kid and that he could find it (ha ha). So, when I stopped giving him these kinds of instructions, he’d often come home and say, “I couldn’t find it; you should have told me where it is in the store. You didn’t give me enough info.” (ugh!) </p>
<p>After a couple of times, I had to tell my H that I was in a “damned if I do, damned if I don’t,” situation…and which one would elicit the least complaints. My H then CHOSE that I should give him the most info **in writing. **</p>
<p>I have found that when dealing with these kinds of Catch 22 situations, it’s best NOT to say anything in REAL time when nerves are more raw. Then, later, when everyone is in a good mood, say something like: “I’m trying to decide which is the best approach. I know that you don’t like it when I give you too much info about directions, how to do a chore, or shopping for an item, but I also know that you don’t like it when I don’t give you enough instruction and you can’t do what’s needed to be done. So, which would you prefer that I do that won’t annoy you?”</p>
<p>Future adult bullies:</p>
<p>I remember a mom excusing her 8yo son’s bully-like behavior by saying that he’s “a sensitive person.” Another mom quickly educated her by saying, “no, a sensitive person is sensitive about others’ feelings. Your child is only sensitive about himself.” (I had to bite my hand to keep from laughing.) No surprise that that same child is now 25 and obnoxious and rude.</p>
<p>
One of the problems with H is that he would use ANYTHING I had ever told him at ANY past time as ammunition during one of his rants. This is a surefire way to kill the kind of intimacy in a marriage that allows a couple to tell each other confidences about their past, their dreams, hurts, etc. that they aren’t comfortable telling others. I learned not to tell him anything I didn’t want thrown back. Sometimes you don’t see in advance how something could be used as a weapon, so I learned not to tell him anything at all. </p>
<p>Despite improvements in our relationship, that sense of caution persists and I’m careful about what I divulge.</p>