Stuck in awful marriage

<p>I agree 100% with the therapist recommendation.</p>

<p>No one on this board knows enough about the situation to give good advice as to whether it is better or worse for you to leave so what you will get here are experiences and opinions that may be comforting or may give you some idea of what might happen if you do X or Y, but that’s all. We are here for camaraderie and venting and support - but cannot be here for specific advice. I think you know that, but i feel like it needs to be said again.</p>

<p>A couple of weeks ago, my H helped a neighbor and her kids move out of their house. She had rented an apartment in advance, had a court order keeping her husband away for 12 hours, etc. The neighbor said that her HS aged D would cry: because she was afraid her mom *wouldn’t *leave her dad!</p>

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<p>OMG yes. My dad was crazy/alcoholic and made our lives hell growing up but the parent I remain mad at is my mom, who could have gotten us out of there or tried to protect us and didn’t. My mom was verbally/emotionally abused and I don’t know why she stayed – “for the kids” or because she was afraid she’d end up in poverty or because she herself had a rotten childhood and didn’t know she deserved better, or what. I know it is really complicated, and certainly divorce can damage children and is not something to be done lightly, but living in that kind of home can also be very damaging for children. I wish my mother had had the courage to leave. My dad also had one “scapegoat” child (not me) who he bullied.</p>

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<p>It depends on the state. The OP needs to talk to a lawyer before doing anything like that.</p>

<p>As the child that was “targeted”, I can tell you that my anger was evenly split between the parent who did the targeting and the one who failed to protect me. That will surely be an issue in the OPs future, something for her to consider, I hope.</p>

<p>If you see an attorney they will instruct you to keep a diary of all the abuse and of all the non-parental involvement on the part of your husband. This diary should be electronic- if he finds it it will be taken.
Blog into another email account and set it up to copy an attorney or a trusted friend.
Do this EVERY day . If you have dates of other events that are burned into your memory- offload them to document them.</p>

<p>You’ll have enough evidence you need to get out without a bitter custody battle.
If you don’t want alimony and just want your freedom, this is easy as any attorney will tell you.</p>

<p>Middle school student male or female?</p>

<p>You may have rough financial times for a few years, and perhaps whatever equity you build together for decade disappears-- but you’ll have your peace of mind back and that is worth alot to you.</p>

<p>PS Your kids aren’t stupid and they would want you to be happy. Take care of yourself – that is what your children would tell you to do.</p>

<p>It depends on the state.</p>

<p>that’s the thing…</p>

<p>If I live in state A and move to State B with my kids (and nothing was filed in State A forbidding my move with the kids), then I don’t think it matters what State A thinks, they don’t have jurisdiction over me at that point…living in another state when I didn’t do anything illegal while in State A. </p>

<p>It’s not illegal for a parent to take their own child out of state **when no legal limits have been placed on doing so. ** and, a state can’t place that restriction after the child is gone from that state…it has to be done before. </p>

<p>People do this all the time before anything is filed or a divorce/sep is pending…mom or dad goes to visit Granny in another state, remains there, and announces that he/she wants a divorce. Nothing was ever filed in the original state to prevent the children being taken out of state. </p>

<p>That said, it still safe to check with an atty first…</p>

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<h1>I know this may sound odd, but when that child grows up, s/he will be mad at YOU (the sane one) for not protecting him/her. The child will think to himself…“well, dad was crazy/sick, but YOU should have protected me from him”. </h1>

<p>OMG yes. My dad was crazy/alcoholic and made our lives hell growing up but the parent I remain mad at is my mom, who could have gotten us out of there or tried to protect us and didn’t. My mom was verbally/emotionally abused and I don’t know why she stayed – “for the kids” or because she was afraid she’d end up in poverty or because she herself had a rotten childhood and didn’t know she deserved better, or what. I know it is really complicated, and certainly divorce can damage children and is not something to be done lightly, but living in that kind of home can also be very damaging for children. I wish my mother had had the courage to leave. My dad also had one “scapegoat” child (not me) who he bullied. </p>

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<p>Yep…it happens…kids often are especially angry at the sane/healthy parent for not protecting them from the sick/addicted/abusive parent.</p>

<p>The middle schooler is probably around 12, yes? Do you guys really want her to stay in a marriage another 6 or so years just to protect the children who may already want her to leave dad anyway?</p>

<p>Better question- OP, do YOU think you could take another 6 years of this? If you feel <em>that</em> much better after him leaving for a week, then you need to get out IMO. Life is too short to be miserable and I highly, highly doubt your children will blame you or be mad at you no matter what happens. BTW- The blog entry listed above is very good advice. Make sure that you use some kind of incognito browsing that doesn’t track your history just in case.</p>

<p>romani, what we’re saying is that leaving could make a terrible situation much, much worse. There will not be enough money to support two households, a large distance between the parents’ homes means that the kids will be in both places for a period of time. When they are with dad, mom won’t be there to protect them and won’t be close enough to intervene. Those are things that seem to concern the OP, and rightly so. If she were on her own, she wouldn’t be empowered or happy or anything positive if the kids are worse off than they would have been otherwise. Whatever choice parents make, kids can’t really know if they really would have been better off if the other choice was made.</p>

<p>Get a counselor, see an attorney, work towards putting yourself in an educated and emotionally fit place to leave. </p>

<p>Your H, by his actions, is choosing a miserable life, if not divorce. You can choose a calm and peaceful life for yourself and your kids. He can follow you in this choice, if he wants to change. I’m guessing if he is that angry, he won’t. The hope is that he could follow you to therapy, to a better way of life, but don’t count on it. </p>

<p>When you kids are older, they deserve to come home to a place that feels good emotionally. Your current house is not that place, from what you describe. </p>

<p>Regarding college, there are FA advantages to being a single parent. </p>

<p>I lived through this, and luckily he moved out, as he didn’t want to be that angry person. Keep going to counseling, as it is a rough road to recover your self esteem after living with this for so long. I’d have loved to bring my kids up with an intact family. But I am glad now that the divorce is so far in the past, and have been able to remake my life. </p>

<p>You might want to research which state would treat you better in divorce. Keep every detail of the abuse, as it could be your ammo at some point, but I’m guessing some states pay more attention to this than others.</p>

<p>Did anybody mention mediation instead of an attorney? Depending upon the state of divorce, that is sometimes the preferred method, especially if counseling steers you in that direction.</p>

<p>I have heard that by the time you are in counseling, reconciliation is rare. It is a period to face the reality of the impending split.</p>

<p>A friend of mine did lose custody of her children by getting involved with the courts in another state to which her husband had moved - after the original court had granted her custody - so the individual state laws can’t be emphasized enough - both for custody and financial awards.</p>

<p>Re moving away with the kids before divorce: Not an expert here, but doing this might constitute marital abandonment or desertion. I don’t know what the legal ramifications are, but it is probably worth finding out before doing it.</p>

<p>^^^</p>

<p>I believe that desertion is when the spouse leaves without taking the kids…no support of the kids…essentially abandoning the family. That can hurt getting child custody later. It’s not when you leave WITH the kids for protection of yourself and the kids from verbal abuse…</p>

<p>*If you see an attorney they will instruct you to keep a diary of all the abuse and of all the non-parental involvement on the part of your husband. This diary should be electronic- if he finds it it will be taken.
Blog into another email account and set it up to copy an attorney or a trusted friend.
Do this EVERY day . If you have dates of other events that are burned into your memory- offload them to document them.</p>

<p>*</p>

<p>I agree. Keep a record…date/time…witnesses…email it to yourself daily and to a trusted friend or atty or a very private email acct with a password that only you would know.</p>

<p>Keep a record of how he spends his time at home, rude comments to you or the kids, outbursts, etc. If it’s legal in your state to record without the other person knowing, do that as well. Find a hidden place to keep the recorder and have a small remote that you can use to turn it on when needed. Be careful to never re-record over evidence.</p>

<p>When a neighbor’s H was always super late picking kids up for visitation (during their separation) and returning them VERY early, I helped her document that so that she would get custody. she did.</p>

<p>SadMom, I’m so sorry you’re going through this.</p>

<p>Not to defend him – at all! – but I know from experience of a close loved one that unrelenting pain can radically change someone’s personality. I’m just throwing it out there: Has he seen a pain specialist?</p>

<p>*romani, what we’re saying is that leaving could make a terrible situation much, much worse. There will not be enough money to support two households, a large distance between the parents’ homes means that the kids will be in both places for a period of time. </p>

<p>When they are with dad, mom won’t be there to protect them and won’t be close enough to intervene.</p>

<p>Those are things that seem to concern the OP, and rightly so. If she were on her own, she wouldn’t be empowered or happy or anything positive if the kids are worse off than they would have been otherwise. </p>

<p>Whatever choice parents make, kids can’t really know if they really would have been better off if the other choice was made. *</p>

<p>Very true. If this dad works a lot of hours, and the older child is in high school, then conceivably the mom could help make sure that the two are rarely together and NEVER alone. The mom could encourage this child to do homework at a trusted friend’s home (a good family), be involved at school, etc, to avoid being a target.</p>

<p>It’s not as easy as it might seem to outsiders just to “move out” when kids are involved. The H isn’t likely going to “move out.” The wife and kids would have to move out. Do you think he’s going to make it easy for them to come back in the home a few times to collect their stuff…since it’s unlikely that they could take all their stuff in one trip. </p>

<p>And, the mom would have to find a place that can accomodate 3 people…that’s not cheap. </p>

<p>These things are very complicated.</p>

<p>Thank you all, so much, for your words of support and your suggestions. I can’t express how much it means to me. I have not told anyone about my situation. I’ve withdrawn from some friends over the past few years, and our social life as a couple has pretty much stopped. Whenever we are going to have people over, he goes into an awful state where he rants and raves about what a mess the house is, and he berates me because the house isn’t perfect. Our house is actually lovely, and it is neater than the average family house (in large part because DH is a neatness fanatic). It is old, and we (I) have done a number of renovations over the years. I always plan these and manage the contractors, and every time something is finished he finds a way to criticize it/me. It cost too much, it took too long, I did it according to my taste and not his, and (most commonly) why didn’t I get it done years ago. The first time he did this, over 10 years ago, I was really blindsided by it and was afraid to do anything else for years. I was shocked, because the renovation had come out very well, as they all have. Some did take too long, but most have gone smoothly.</p>

<p>I am working now, and always have, but my career has always taken a back seat to his, especially since we had kids. His job is much more secure and he makes more than double my salary. Moving would mean an increased salary and better job security for me. I would be afraid to be on my own financially without the ability to move.
Much conflicting advice here, and I see merit in everything that was said. I don’t know which point of view is valid for us. I will definitely find a therapist. I know that I need help. I have not talked to the kids about what is going on, hoping that they were not fully aware of it. DH is hardly even around. I do not really believe that the kids would be better off if we were to divorce, but maybe I am wrong. </p>

<p>Classof2015, what you posted is exactly what I hope to find: “I want you to do anything and everything to bolster your self-esteem and protect yourself from the acid rain of negative comments he slings your way.” I’ve been thinking about posting here for a while, mostly to ask for advice on how to protect my spirit from the barrage of criticism and negativity. Somehow when I did post, I forgot this. How, exactly, can I do this? Mimk6, you said, “I believe OP can become stronger in this situation and make some changes and, if nothing else, start taking steps now so that she can safely and successfully leave at the right time.” This is what I am looking for. I know that, as crizello posted, I can’t change him, but only myself. </p>

<p>How can I protect myself from being damaged by constant exposure to this person, and how can I be a good model for my children? I have no leverage over him. He sees no need to respond to my requests/wishes/demands because there is no “or else” that he cares about. I can’t even talk to him. He has some techniques for shutting me off. One is to say, “Stop yelling at me,” if I say anything at all confrontational. This is bizarre, because I am calm and almost never raise my voice. He also interrupts me constantly. I will get out half a sentence and he will start talking over me, drowning me out. This morning (decription below) he just kept yelling, “I don’t want to talk to you.”</p>

<p>I can honestly say that I am a good person, kind and loving. I have good relationships with everyone in my life except DH, including family, friends, coworkers, neighbors. I am usually able to have good relationships even with people that most people don’t like. I can usually see things from their perspective and make some sort of connection, even though I recognize the reasons that they are not liked. I have many good qualities, but for some reason DH sees me as unworthy. </p>

<p>There is a certain amount of up and down. Most of the time he is not around or hiding in his home office. Sometimes he is pleasant and the house is happy. When he is home and in a bad mood, it is very unpleasant for me. He always talks nicely to the younger child, who can do no wrong in his view. He pretty much ignores the older one. I wouldn’t say that he bullies this child, it’s more that he doesn’t pay much attention and doesn’t take any interest, and it is obvious that he does not think highly of this child. He is not a good father to the younger one, either. There is no true interest, but the younger one is more “braggable.” The “targeting” comment was an unusual thing for my younger child to say, and it struck me because it showed that s/he recognized the different ways the two children are treated.</p>

<p>I sometimes feel trapped by the feeling that if I leave DH it will be better for me, but my kids will pay the price. And I sometimes feel that if we only had the older one, it would be easy to leave with him because DH wouldn’t care. As it is, I could leave with the older one and it would be better for both of us, but much worse for the younger one. I go around and around about this and it drives me crazy. I know a therapist could help here. I can say for sure that the brunt of it all falls on me and not on the kids. I know for sure that the last thing the younger one would want is to move. S/he hates change and home and friends are of primary importance. </p>

<p>DH gets up very early during the week and on weekends (4:30). When he is in a bad mood he makes a lot of noise, deliberately, so that I will not be able to sleep. He resents the fact that I can sleep later than he does. (I get up at 6 during the week and would like to sleep later on weekends.) He goes to bed very early and I stay up later, in large part because I like to wait until the kids are in bed to go to sleep myself. He takes a lot of naps on weekends. This morning he was crashing around in the kitchen, making a horrible amount of noise, and I went downstairs to ask him why he was doing this. He was livid, kept complaining that everyone left things around for him to clean up (one of his favorite themes). He seems to really believe that he does all the work and I do nothing. I do the food and other shopping, all cooking (a big job with two teens), kitchen cleanup (as long as I have known him he has taken the position that if you cook, you have messed up the kitchen and it is your job to clean it up, to give one example of the strange way he sees the world), all laundry, all child-related arranging of lessons, activities, all driving, taking out the garbage, etc., with some help from the kids. We have a housecleaner once a week. He cannot stand anything being left out, our kitchen counters have to always be completely clear (not even a cookie jar or fruit bowl). This morning he was screaming at me that I hadn’t put away the groceries from the night before. I came home with several bags of groceries and put everything away except a package of paper towels that was left by the door. If he empties the dishwasher once, it looms larger in his mind than the 14 other times that week that I’ve done it. He said, “I got up this morning and the towels were all wet – what kind of people are you?” All of the “conversation” on his side was yelling. This morning he woke the younger child up, and s/he was upset. </p>

<p>He always says that I could never keep up his schedule even for a day, I could never deal with his pain, he really works (as opposed to me, he considers my job a hobby although it is a substantial job). These comments are thrown at me like spears. I need a shield.</p>

<p>Is this abuse? I don’t know. My first priority is the children, and being with them every day. But I am starting to worry about how they are being affected. </p>

<p>I will start to document things. I take it I should use email or something that has date stamps? How can I do this privately? I have heard that accounts like gmail could someday be put on a searchable public server (something like wikileaks). </p>

<p>DH does see a pain specialist, who prescribes medication that lessens but does not eliminate the pain. His condition is not life-threatening or even serious, as the doctors see it. He has refused to try all the things I’ve suggested that might get to the cause. I am a fighter, and very resourceful. He is a fatalist. He saw a couple of doctors early on who were not able to help. I see this as only the start, he thinks that he’s done everything he can. He has always ignored my suggestions or even gotten angry. I’ve never understood this. </p>

<p>I am reading every comment. There is too much information to take in all at once, but I will keep reading and thinking. I am more grateful to all of you than I can say. </p>

<p>Next steps: Therapist. Attorney.</p>

<p>No, next step: Hug. </p>

<p>Then, therapist and attorney.</p>

<p>You are being verbally and emotionally abused. Find a therapist, and read some books on the subject. Start with this one: <a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Verbally-Abusive-Relationship-recognize-respond/dp/1440504636/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid[/url]”>http://www.amazon.com/Verbally-Abusive-Relationship-recognize-respond/dp/1440504636/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid&lt;/a&gt; =1323311991&sr=1-1</p>

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<p>I’m not a lawyer, but the story I told before of the woman who ended up in jail was not a situation where a divorce or separation was in progress. She left and tried to disappear for safety reasons. He found her and he pressed charges and went for custody and it ended badly for her. In that case, the state she broke the law in was the state from which she took the kids. Do you really think one parent can just decide to take the kids and move to another state without consulting the other parent? It’s not a visit to Grandma that Dad knows about. It’s moving the kids, taking them out of their school, etc. and not telling the other parent. There has to be legal protection for parents from this kind of thing. Imagine if you just came home one day and your kids were gone and you didn’t know where they were except that the other parent had taken them and disappeared and gone out of state. I’m pretty sure any one of us would hope to get help from the police in such a scenario.</p>

<p>VerryHappy is right. That is clear emotional, verbal, and psychological abuse. </p>

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<p>And you should. I really, really recommend calling 1-800-799-SAFE. It is the domestic violence hotline and they can point you to local resources such as counseling, therapy, and local legal resources. It’s a great first step no matter what route you choose to take. They can also provide you with safety plans so that you know what resources are available to you and your children.</p>

<p>Do you have a work email? Can you send yourself emails to that?</p>

<p>Your H can’t just search your emails on google or whatever.</p>