Success without McIntire?

This has been a hotly debated topic for UVA applicants as well as for other schools that don’t offer direct admit to undergrad business programs. I’ve written about this in the past on CC but that was from school provided data/anecdotally based info. Now that my child is set to graduate from UVA in May ‘23 and internships/interviews are done with an offer being accepted I can write about this first hand.
Without a doubt acceptance into McIntire creates phenomenal chances for future employment but not being accepted doesn’t shut the door to tremendous opportunities. My child (with 3.7 GPA) was not accepted into McIntire but soon learned it wasn’t GPA or ability that caused this to occur. They failed understand and play the “game” from the moment they step foot on Grounds.
It’s getting in the right clubs and taking leadership positions while maintaining your grades. There are exceptions to every rule but if you look at the acceptance rates from certain clubs (which are not easy to get into) and which positions where held it becomes evident.
My child was able to minor in a program at McIntire but in reality I think it had very little to do with the job offers. Since they didn’t use any resources (college fairs or guidance from McIntire advisors.) An internship was accepted this Summer through connections from a classmate’s parents at UVA. This turned into a valuable experience and job offer but not the financial terms they thought attainable.
So using that as a low bar they applied to 8 other higher paying jobs and interviewed at 4. They received and accepted an offer in DC for over $110k (with bonus) first year - $35k/year more than the first job offer. Their suite mate (also not a McIntire graduate) has taken a job with Deloitte in DC.
Note in both jobs they have fellow classmates who are McIntire graduates who were accepted to the same company in the same positions. In fact mine was contacted by a McIntire alum working in the same position at the company who graduated a year earlier. Also, in looking, fellow employees at the same program and company are Ross, Olin and McDonough grads…
Now if you are dead set on an IB (GS, Jeffries, etc) or consulting job (read McKinsey, Bain, etc) the placement from McIntire is unbelievable and appears to be an advantage. This was never an aspiration for mine because they didn’t want to travel and work-life balance is critical.
So I’m not saying McIntire doesn’t add value, it surely does, but for the majority of those not getting into McIntire is not as devastating as it’s made out to be.

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Excellent post. It’s just discouraging how many people go to UVA and want to study business and don’t realize how difficult an admit it is. My brother-in-law didn’t get in to McIntire as an undergrad and was an Econ major. Worked for a couple of years and then went to a top tier business school for an MBA. He is a very successful investment banker so even if that’s the track you want to take there are ways to that job and most high-level investment bakers have MBA’s anyway. However, kids do need to know that they need to have a Plan B at UVA if they plan on studying business just in case they aren’t one of the lucky ones.

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Excellent post about an alternative route through UVA. What did your child major and minor in? Happy things have worked out!

Majored in Econ and minored in 1) Sociology and 2) Entrepreneurship (McIntire)

Thank you for the helpful post. My D23 was accepted to UVA and is in the process of trying to determine if other acceptances into direct business programs may make more sense. Reading your post makes me think there is a lot of value to a UVA degree even without getting into the business school. Can you provide any more info regarding the preferred clubs and/or how competitive the environment was?

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In 2021 63% that applied to McIntire were accepted so more than half got in. My DD was in Class of 2022 and didn’t do any business related clubs to get in. What she did was to get involved in the school and show leadership. She mainly did music activities, Marching band, service organization and and held leadership positions. Some of the business clubs are competitive and I believe many students join just to help get into McIntire. Not saying that some join because they really enjoy them but I think some think you have to, to get in. My advise would be to do well in pre comm classes, don’t need straight A+, just do well and get involved in the school and show that you have leadership abilities that the business world can use. My DD double majored so she had a backup plan also, many that don’t get in major in economics and get great jobs as well. Good luck

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Keep in mind with the 63% there is a significant element of self selection due to pre-comm grades by the time applications are due. I think going in with a plan is important because that 63% number is deceptive. There are 3.9+ applicants that don’t get in and 3.5 students who do get in. I think clubs are extremely important with a bias toward business related clubs but most importantly holding leadership positions in any club.
My daughter chose UVA over direct admits to IU-Kelley (with Honors and $$) as well as BC-Carroll. We and she (most importantly) have no regrets

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My understanding is that the acceptance rate for McIntire is typically around 60%.

I know great students who have bypassed UVA in favor of Virginia Tech or JMU because they wanted to know that they would be able to major in what they wanted to major in. One who chose Tech later got a job with an elite consulting company without a problem, and the another who went to JMU got her dream marketing job upon graduating.

Wish UVA would rethink this policy and let students direct admit into business. While they certainly don’t have a problem attracting students, it seems unfair to expect a student to gamble with their education in this way.

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I doubt this will happen because UVA always has emphasized a liberal arts education if you enroll in the school of Arts and Sciences. The fear is by making Comm a 4 year degree it will decrease a well rounded degree with an element of the Humanities.
As you alluded to the state of Virginia offers other direct admit options as well as many other universities in the US where a student can pursue a business degree for all 4 years. I don’t think UVA will acquiesce to public pressure and considering it’s 50% or less of the size of Ross, Kelley, Stern, etc it won’t have to.

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This entire post was very helpful. There was actually another thread about this which was closed due to the passage of time, but I think threads like these about direct admit or not direct admit need to stay open. There are a lot of kids faced with this dilemma right now that don’t understand the ultimate outcome of their decision.

My D was so torn over the decision she decided not to apply to UVA even though she had the stats to. She did apply to VT and was admitted directly into accounting there. The Big 4 recruit from VT, so opportunities won’t be an issue. But I’ve done much more research on the matter because I know that kids pick a major, and often change after being in college for a bit, so I wanted her to be able to keep her options open to transfer to UVA in the future if needed, or possibly get an MBA.

What I am discovering is that UVA is good for those who have ambitions in IBs and MBBS because the IBs and MBBs recruit from here. It seems like those professions are highly competitive. So UVA kind of breeds/fosters the competitive nature that’s needed in the IB and MBB space and recreates those highly competitive environments. But again, if you don’t get into UVA, but want to get into the most lucrative IB and MBB positions, there are other routes. If you want to run a company, be a CEO, or CFO, etc., you don’t necessarily need to take the UVA route. But the lifestyle of working at a Big 4, going into IB/MBB, or working at other companies is different, so that may be another aspect for our kids to consider as they figure things out.

It’s a lot for an 18 year-old to figure out, and I don’t think all parents know the exact outcomes either to best advise their kids, so I’m an advocate for direct admit into UVA, especially since its a public state school, but UVA can set their rules, and do what they want, it’s their school. Also, I don’t think the process is entirely transparent. I had to do a lot of research, and piecemeal information from here and other resources and still have more questions. A one-off, my kids did fine, is not a lot of info.

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I doubt UVA will ever go to a 4 year business program too. Because if you think about it, their current system ensures that they get the strongest kids into their liberal arts program. If they had direct admit into business schools, the kids that didnt get in will go elsewhere to schools that did let them in. Whereas, if they don’t direct admit, they get a good pool of strong students to dump in their liberal arts program. It probably raises the reputation of their liberal arts program and their school. Unlike a private school, they are a state school required to let a certain number of state kids in. It probably makes their pool of students look less appealing than a private school, so they have to find a way to mitigate this perception and help their branding.

Its a risk for the kids though, especially if those kids could reach the same career goals they wanted to reach at another college with direct admit. But I’m realizing that if we talk to our kids and kind of have an idea on what our kids might want to do in the future, the decision on direct admit verses not direct admit is less difficult to make. Although still difficult.

Did I read somewhere it was going to a 3 year business school model, so students apply during their first year?

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Two stories about people I knew at UVA.

The first was an Italian Literature major who, after graduating, worked at a bakery in Seattle. They got more and more involved in the management and accounting part of the business, took over day to day operations, and later picked up an MBA at Chicago. Last I heard, they live in NYC doing mergers and acquisitions.

The second was a Cognitive Science major who took a job in management consulting after graduating and quickly moved up the ladder. Earned an MBA at Stanford and has done very well in business.

There are many pathways to success in business I don’t think these stories are unique to UVA.

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I heard about the three year program, but it produces the same results. Commerce school introduces three-year program, largely garners student support - The Cavalier Daily - University of Virginia's Student Newspaper

My guess is that competition helps the school’s reputation. There’s a lot of positives mentioned in the article, but this was the part of the article that struck me: “While Morris said he cannot predict how the curriculum change will change the competition between applicants in gaining a spot in McIntire, he said he hopes it will encourage more people to apply.”

I have a question on another thread asking about the next McIntire admission pool: University of Virginia Early Action/Early Decision for Fall 2024 Admissions - #405 by DcMdVaMom

I sent an email to the school because my daughter is considering a transfer to McIntire next year. If she doesn’t get in, she’ll stay where she got in under direct admit. I’ll post an update when the school responds for those that are curious.

It will have a meaningful impact on students looking to get IB internships.

Previously all rising junior UVA applicants for summer IB roles were on a level playing field. Under this new plan hiring banks will be able to distinguish between McIntire and non McIntire applicants.

This will clearly help some and hurt others. At schools that have a “business, finance or commerce” major, I banks will tend to focus their hiring on these students and continue to hire humanities students from the 6 ivies without b schools and LACs.

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This was what I suspected from the outcome reports, that a lot of kids would eventually pursue an MBA, and that the more science-y majors, like Econ, Cognitive Science, would lead into the consulting or financial services industries. An MBA is a common next step in consulting. Most of the people in management levels I worked with in Big4 consulting had MBAs. If they had an English degree or a more liberal arts degree, they that some graduate level degree, and an MBA. I didnt need one because I had a CPA. I think Chicago and Stanford are MBB target schools.

The MBA path is certainly less popular these days-applications are way down, as investment banks implemented the A2A ( analyst to associate ) path, with many seeking exits to private equity thereafter. Consulting used to hire more MBAs than BAs, but that too has shifted. It will be interesting to see if it comes back.

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I wonder if this shift was due to the ramped up hiring during Covid for the tech boom? I wonder who was more likely to be laid off during the subsequent rebalancing/shrinking of the consulting work force?

I never really looked into the MBA until recently, and it was only because of my D’s college choices. But it sounds like there’s a lot of MBAs in the market already and if there is a decline, I wonder if its because of that.

I have heard this too. What is an associate level? Is that equivalent to supervisory/management?

There’s also such an opportunity cost to MBAs. They are expensive (for most), so there are 21+ months of lost earnings (if getting a two year program), and likely at least one lost promotion that one would have had at the firm they left. $$$$

Insights in the banking world @catcherinthetoast? My IB analyst D with a STEM degree doesn’t plan on getting an MBA or perceive that it will be helpful in banking or PE, at least now/eight months in to her role.

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