As this case shows, prosecuting this young lady successfully could prove to be very difficult, even assuming events happened exactly as the police allege:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Francis_Melchert-Dinkel
From the above case:
There are 3 issues here: (1) does the alleged conduct constitute manslaughter under Mass law? (2) should the alleged conduct be illegal–or is making it illegal an impermissible restraint of free speech? (3) Are the facts as alleged and/or are there other exculpatory facts which would make the defendant’s conduct less reprehensible?
While I don’t practice criminal law and am not admitted in Mass, I suspect the answer to # 1 is no. The defense attorney will move to dismiss the indictment on the ground that the allegations of the complaint, even if they are true, do not constitute manslaughter. If the motion is granted, the case may end. I guess it’s possible that she’ll be charged with some other crime, but I think it unlikely.
The answer to #2 should, I think, be yes, at least when the deceased is mentally ill and/or of limited intelligence and the person encouraging suicide is aware of that. Hunt’s hypothetical is very, very different than the facts here here because he is assuming the person contemplating suicide is capable of making a rational choice–even if that choice is one I personally find morally wrong. While I personally think all suicide is morally objectionable, I find the free speech argument more valid when the person contemplating suicide is not being manipulated into making the choice by the person with whom he chooses to discuss suicide. But when the person is clinically depressed or suffers from some other mental illness or defect of which the other party to the conversation is aware, then I think that there should bea law against it. If someone is suffering from dementia and part of that dementia is paranoia, as it often is, should someone be legally able to convince the poor soul suffering from dementia to kill himself to avoid some paranoid delusion that has no basis in reality?
I suspect we shall never find out the answer to question 3 because the case won’t get that far.
http://www.southcoasttoday.com/article/20150303/NEWS/150309853/101194/NEWS0301
I’ve never understood why that’s the line used by those advocating against suicide. A permanent solution to any problem sounds good.
I’m obviously not a therapist of psychologist, but I do trust people to make decisions for themselves. I can’t tell if they’re looking for confirmation or doubt. I want them to make their own decision, not look to me or anyone else to make it for them.
My view is simply that that is a sort of manipulation. And not a manipulation about some minor decision, a manipulation about a very major decision. In a decision that big I simply do not feel it appropriate for me to manipulate someone, especially not a friend. Whether or not that’s right in the eyes of God I don’t know but it’s the best I can come up with.
To clarify, I meant better than him/his state of mind at that moment. And additionally that it’s arguable, not that I want to argue it.
Which is why you have no business whatsoever advising someone to kill themselves. Most of the time, someone who is contemplating suicide is so depressed that they are not thinking rationally. They need someone who is qualified to assess their state of mind and you are clearly not the right person for that job.
Vlad–You think that a depressed person contemplating suicide is thinking rationally. They are not.
I repeat. It is not rational thinking.
Here’s another scenario–Let’s say a friend is acting weird and you realize they are high on drugs or plastered. The friend gets it in their head that jumping out the 10 story window because they think they can fly is a great idea and goes to the window to jump out. What do you do at that point? Pull them back from the ledge or just sit back and watch the show?
Well, it’s kind of like nuking a mosquito.
The simple fact that this girl was in contact with the boy at the same time she was telling the mom that she didn’t know where he was is mind boggling. It doesn’t matter how many e-mails there were. Those few would be enough for me. She not only possibly encouraged him (I’ll refrain from making the judgement) but worse yet kept others away who could possibly have saved him.
It sounds like in PG’s therapist example, the therapist was saying “OK, go commit suicide” in the belief that hearing that would make the person less likely to kill himself. That is, the therapist was not intending to encourage the person to kill himself, but forcing the person to face up to how it would be (how awful it would be) if he did kill himself.
Just trying to support D today as she gets through the 1-year anniversary of her classmate & friend’s suicide. Thinking of the student’s family, teachers, classmates, friends and counselors.
Many self-destructive acts are impulsive, especially in young people. Survivors have attested to this.
People should do everything they can to help someone at risk get to a point of clarity and see the value of living. “What do we say to death? ‘Not today.’”
Yeah, obviously.
Your posts on this topic have an undertone of superiority as if you have a clearer understanding than the professionals of what a suicidal person really needs or wants. It is disturbing. Maybe with maturity will come some humility. I just hope that you don’t lose a friend in the meantime, in part because of your cavalier attitude on this.
Well, lets not not get carried away. It’s not as though the professionals have all the answers on this one. Or, even close.
I can’t imagine what the boy’s family is going through.
That is a good quote.
The professionals have a far better idea of how to handle suicidal ideation than those with no training in the area.
There is no shortage of suicides where professionals were involved. Typically they say things like I’m sorry so it’s no cure all is all I’m saying. With regards to this case; the chances of a 17-year old being convicted of involuntary manslaughter in the death of her boyfriend based on a series of text messages is very, very slim.
No, that is not what professionals say. Of course there are suicides when professionals are involved. Not all suicides can be prevented, and by virtue of the profession and the population they serve, there is a greater percentage of high risk/suicidal clients in the population seen by professionals than in the general population. The percentage of suicidal individuals who have been successfully managed/treated/saved with professional guidance and support is certainly much higher than the number of clients lost to suicide. This is a high risk population. No one “has all the answers” but the implied comment about professionals is distasteful and insulting to the profession.
Professionals have kept my son alive.
“Of course there are suicides when professionals are involved.”
Right, and now a 17-year old girl is facing jail time because she failed to prevent one. It’s a stretch at best.
No, she is facing jail time because prosecutors believe she actively encouraged and assisted in a suicide. Not only that, knowing that the young man’s family was looking for him, she allegedly deliberately withheld information which could have resulted in his family potentially locating him and getting him help. Whether or not that results in any conviction I have no idea. But saying she is facing jail time because “she failed to prevent” a suicide is disingenuous at best imo.
No, it’s not a stretch. Professionals are not encouraging or facilitating people to commit suicide. This person is alleged to have encouraged someone to commit suicide, despite his doubts .