@MomofJandL IDK. Who’s to say she would have received ANY alimony or child support. Doesn’t sound like the dad would comply. You think he would hand over money to a woman he considers property. How many women do you think did this in the 50s? Divorced and left with little kids because the husband was verbally abusive (just like her own father probably and many other men of the time.) And who’s to say that this new life, as an unskilled laborer mother who had to farm out the little kids (because they didn’t have daycare) wouldn’t have far more abusive with far fewer opportunities. The kids could forget going to college. I think she made the same sacrifice that so many women of her time did. She took the abuse for her family.
There was day care back then. It just looked different than now. More home based. Plenty of 2 income couples in that day. It wasn’t all Leave It to Beaver. And, yes, college was an option still too, mainly because it was much more affordable. You could work and out yourself through college.
This relationship with her mother is something RVM has to decide about, but clearly she’s deeply wounded. I think we risk forgetting that when we jump to forgiving or explaining why her mother made the choices she did.
She’s saying it’s been a lifetime without her mother’s support in a crushing situation. She hasn’t said they have a bond when the father isn’t around. That’s huge. Now, they get along without incident when she works at “good daughter,” taking her shopping, finding neutral topics.
I get trying to do right, have the future memory of that. But it sounds like she’s been trying to forgive and forget for so long that she hardly has her bearings.
Be careful you aren’t telling her to keep enduring, “poor mom,” which perpetuates what RVM feels. Mom, in effect, has been co-conspirator, allowing this.
This may be a case where it matters more to support RVM. As someone said, if this were physical abuse, would you say, “Oh, well?” Like, it’s ok?
I worked for a woman in the early 90s who was supposed to get child support for her kids. Despite many trips to court she never got anything. It’s easy to say she should have left - but many abused women don’t even realize they are abused.
Omg…your life resembles mine with my parents, it’s uncanny. I never spoke back to my Dad, it truly is a control thing…and he could treat her awful, but nobody else. Reading your post was like reading about my family. But be prepared for this…your mom has been controlled for so long that if she is the survivor she might become a bit ugly. Mine knows nothing about finances, couldn’t even write a check anymore, knew nothing about What They had or even how to live. When I tried to help her, she was mean and hateful… She didn’t want anyone telling her what to do at all…stay away. Decades of anger come surfacing. I was surprised at that.
@doschicos - remember that the options you refer to were much less available in some areas of the country. I agree with t those that say it is harder to look back at that generation with 20/20 hindsight, especially when there were far fewer “role models” to look up to.
@rockvillemom - one thing that strikes me in your comments is that your father reviews his financial picture with you twice per year. You also mentioned that you have lived your life frequently seeking his approval.
My late father handled everything for my mother - and since he’s been gone my sisters, my DH, and I have had to pick up a LOT for her. Several years before he passed, my father had asked me to help review his financial picture, as it was clear to him that she would need help if he went before her. I was happy to help, not just for their peace of mind, but also it made picking up the pieces afterward easier for me. During one of our conversations, I happened to slip in the fact that ohboy, it was a good thing he sent me off to college, as I don’t know how Mom would be able to handle her finances without us, it really is a different world for women now than it was back in his generation. My father was certainly a chauvinist by today’s standards, and I know the way the world changed troubled him and many in his generation. It was very rare for him to express how proud he was of us, or how grateful he was for all we were doing. I am sure if my brother, who died in infancy, had lived, our lives would all have been different. I used to tell my father how he did pretty darn well despite the cards that were handed to him - which was true, but I think he needed to hear it often.
Your dad may be a terrible person in many respects, but he doesn’t see himself that way. He more likely feels cheated by the world somehow, as when you were born, the idea/dream of being a millionaire seemed to offer a promise of a worry-free life, but now that he’s achieved it, there are still plenty of things wrong in the world, and since there are many others who have a lot more money than he does, he just doesn’t feel as special as he thought he would.
I am heartened that you won’t completely abandon your parents, and glad that backing off is providing you some needed relief.
My mother hardly got child support, I know how small the checks were and what my father did to stall, make it difficult. And she loved him. But she had the guts to get out. Partly for herself, partly for us. She went to work. Of course there are challenges, but it’s not impossible.
Where do you draw the line? We expect parents to be concerned for their kids
Thanks for bringing this up, that certainly isn’t what I meant but it may not have been clear. My point was to remember that Mom owns this problem as much as Dad.
My point was to NOT confuse “forgiveness” (which is acknowledging that a wrong was done but not letting the anger about it eat you alive) with “excusing” (which is pretending that what was done was not really wrong.)
Whose to say that if she hadn’t spoken up earlier she might not have been able to get him to modify his behavior somewhat? I feel like a spouse has more leverage than a kid does in that situation. I’m just saying it might not have ended in divorce.
@3puppies I agree with you especially about the financial part. Mom is cut out even now. Never at any time in her life is she considered an independent and capable woman. And our ideas of abuse have evolved. Not just verbal, which in a lot of places would have been normal back then to treat a woman as subservient but physical abuse. When canings and whippings were common. We’re so far from the realities of woman born almost three generations ago. I still think it’s hard to judge by modern eyes. Dad probably thinks he’s the best guy. All they had to do back then is be a good provider and he’s done that in spades. Dads weren’t as involved with their kids in a nurturing way. Times were different.
It is naïve to pretend much has changed. A lot goes on behind closed doors. There are still plenty of women who stay and raise kids with abusive men. This isn’t a generational fluke that has run its course. Yes, there are laws that protect women’s property rights now, but there are men who bully and subjugate and undermine and hide assets.
Times weren’t that different in the 50’s. My mother’s first husband didn’t like to work – he liked to drink and chase women. My mother left him when she was pregnant. My husband’s grandmother was a single mom even earlier – in the mid-1930’s. Her husband didn’t like to work much either. Women in those eras returned to their families and/or got jobs and supported themselves and their children. You don’t hear about it a lot, but it doesn’t mean it was uncommon.
I also disagree that men weren’t nurturing. If my father were alive, he’d be over 100, and he was nothing like OP describes. To write her parents’ behavior off as normal for the time period is doing her a real disservice.
@austinmshauri We don’t know what culture OP’s family is from. Dad immigrated. Certainly within different cultures that was more the norm in addition to the different times. So her reality could have been no support from the family and who knows what part of the country they were in. I don’t write off dad’s behavior but I have compassion for the mother as a woman who has faced long-term abuse. Maybe her whole life?
Sadly, I know several women who are married to emotionally abusive men. The men can be very thoughtful at times but are VERY controlling and it has affected their kids as well. These women have weighed their options and chosen to remain in their relationships. I think the women all chose better the devil they know over the unknown (the devil they don’t know). The women all have their bills for themselves and the kids paid and the Hs are solely in charge of finances.
I’ve known at least a few women who chose to divorce instead. It was VERY rough for everyone at first but each of these women sharpened her skills and honed her career and made it work and are (in my mind) now in an emotionally stronger and better place. Their exes are all puzzled about what happened and why the partners “suddenly” changed.
Most of these women got very little alimony or support even tho they sacrificed their career for the husband’s. Several of them are owed a ton of alimony and child support but aren’t even going to bother trying to collect. One of these women is a college professor, one is an attorney, two are RNs, one was office manager for her H’s dental practice and now lives paycheck to paycheck in a rental running a lunchwagon. These women are 50s-70s.
But not knowing their cultural background or assuming Mom would have been left bereft doesn’t help RVM today. This isn’t an abstract problem, but very real the cost RVM pays today (and has been paying.) There is no magic loving behavior on her part that reverses this. That’s a different band-aid.
One of the issues with emotional abuse is squarely recognizing it for what is IS. In the example of an abusive husband, would you just say, oh, it must have been tough for him, he didn’t have a choice, give him a hug and be a good wife?
RVM, I may be more defensive of you than you need. If so, apologies. But I think it’s very hard to just will away or ignore behaviors that hurt and left a long, deep impression.
Many people in the family faced emotional abuse clearly and no one has stood up to the dad it seems even as adults. So there must be some reason for that. Sounds like the mother is still being abused. Dad is not going to change at almost 90. Their probably losing their cognitive functions. OP could try therapy. No one seems to have the strength to stand up to the dad even when he’s abusing people. I guess the mom failed but there are no other superheroes. Maybe a son would have stood up for her and tried to protect her from him even now. Maybe this doesn’t get solved. Maybe it just ends.
@gearmom, you seem full of excuses. Dad was abusive, and mom abetted his behavior, and continues to do so. It’s just that simple. And now OP needs to figure out how or whether to have a relationship with either of them, and why.
Everyone has an excuse for bad behavior. Even Al Franken and Charlie Rose and Bill O’Reilly. Really, it wasn’t so bad. But it was, and it’s ok to say so.
@MomofJandL I don’t excuse the dad in ANY way. I only have some sympathy for the mother. It was an attempt to understand her plight. NAME ONE EXCUSE WHERE I SAID THIS WAS O’K. I called it ABUSE which is what it is. The people at the resturant also got abused by dad. I guess everyone is aiding and abetting dad because no one stood up to him. Mom gets belittled and berated and no one stands up to him. Lots of aiding and abetting since not one person has stood up to him. Why didn’t anyone stop the abuse at the restaurant if it is so easy?
Maybe OP needs to stop aiding and abetting dad because he is an ABUSER and there is NO EXCUSE for the abuse. Hope that is clear enough.
I have sympathy for abused women. We’ll agree to disagree.
I have sympathy for abused women, too, as I run into it far too frequently in my volunteer work. But I especially have sympathy for the OP, @rockvillemom . @MomofJandL the whole point of trying to find out who/what was responsible is not to absolve wrongdoing, nor to accept/condone bad behavior, but instead to prevent it from continuing, and to help determine a future course of action. Because these things are never easy.
I am sure there would be some folks reading this thread who would condemn OP for still including her parents in her life, because of the abuse and enabling behavior.
Similarly there will be people who think it’s just terrible if she walks away from them. And I am not just thinking of the people who would mostly count the million reasons to stay.
Wishing peace and kindness to OP, and even to her family. I have every reason to believe OP will find the best possible solution, lord only knows what that will be.
@austinmshauri - I respectfully disagree with you on how different times are now vs in the 50’s - while it is easy to find examples/exceptions with 20/20 hindsight, back in the 50’s things were very different in different parts of the country. People who have done well are much more likely to think it is due to their own grit/talent/resourcefulness/hard work and less about luck or opportunity. Sometimes more needs to be considered.
@rockvillemom : how are you doing today?
You’re a good daughter. You’re doing what needs to be done and reclaiming your rights. You’re strong.
Stay off the phone. (You may want to call someone to go and stop by regularly so that, if something happens, you don’t guilt trip yourself into feeling miserable “because you should have been there”. No, you didn’t. You don’t have to be there. But if you might feel bad or be guilt tripped, delegate.)
Stay away till don’t don’t think the phone ringing might be them and till you don’t hear your father running a commentary in your head about what you’re doing/wrong. 
Then, enjoy the peace for a few days.