Thanksgiving aftermath - family feud

Parent Cafe
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My mother rarely discusses her marriage with me. But a few years back, she opened up and shared the story of their first fight as a married couple. Maybe a few weeks/months in - argument - and when she does not back down - he gives her the silent treatment. And this goes on for a day or two. And she was upset and embarassed and had no idea how to handle. She was too embarrassed to confide in her parents or a friend. Not a wordly person - lived at home until maried. So, she backed down and apologized. And so it begins.

She has a masters in education from NYU and taught elementary school until married. But has never lived alone and not much in the way of life skills. She has no credit in her name. Very little understanding of financial or real estate matters. Divorce was never ever an option. As long as she agrees with everything he says and does what he wants, smooth sailing. But the slightest agravation or frustrating gets him yelling, and if you really anger him, it’s the silent treatment.

My father was the first born son to immigrant parents who did not speak English fluently and had grade school educations. By the time he was 7 or 8, he handled routine business matters for them, translated, etc. My grandparents treated him like royalty and I guess this is where his behavior started.

Nothing is really going to change now as far as their dynamic.

My plan: No more dinners out with them. Minimizing contact. But be there in a crisis. That’s my plan for now.

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@MYOS1634 - I’m fine, thank you. Super busy at work, which helps. And talking here and all of the support and advice has been amazing. I am much much more comfortable discussing here, not so much in real life.

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@rockvillemom Sometimes the worst part of being in a bad situation is not knowing when it will end. If you knew when it will end it could become more bearable. But this too will end for you and probably within five years. Be kind to yourself. Be forgiving to yourself. Probably the majority of women aren’t as fearless as they wish they were. We see this in the media every day. Put a picture of Fearless Girl as your phone screen saver and just be good to yourself and patient with yourself. When the plane is going down, you put on your own oxygen mask first.

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Glad to hear it. It can be hard sometimes not to feel guilty because you’re putting your needs first. <- in case this sounds like an accusation, which your dad may have used to describe “bad selfish daughter”: yes, you should be first, not them.

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Each of us is likely to have to live long after our elders and parents have long since departed. I love my folks but I will care for myself, H and kids and be sure they come before my folks. I have siblings who can and do help as well. We must all do what keeps us sane. It is necessary to gave boundaries and care for oneself.

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So…my in-laws were bigoted, nasty people. Some people here know about them in a personal way (from me). There are others knew fil from his career. Mr. Ellebud was threatened with loss of money…because Mr. Ellebud married a Jew. (that would be me). And he announced how thrilled was when I got cancer. Maybe I would die!!! Two things: I began controlling the conversations/ending conversations by saying, “That must make you angry…” (thank you Dr. Haim Gannot) “It must be disappointing…”

He would be speechless…thank you God. (Yes, there were years when we did not speak.)’

Oh…and the 10 million dollars? Gosh darn…people stole from him, he had mistresses…and in the end there was 125,000 to be split.

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@bevhills Just wow.Brilliant on silencing the bigot. Good strategy. Really sorry you fought cancer though.

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@rockvillemom - that sounds like a great plan. You aren’t cutting them out and making them fend for themselves, but there is no socializing. Now I’m just curious how long they’ll go before calling.

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I"ve read this entire thread (even shared it with my husband as there have been some really stellar posts in this discussion). RVM, I love your plan for going forward. Best wishes to you.

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OP:

I think that your plan of no more dinners out with your parents is a really good idea.

As a spin-off to what @bevhills said in post #165 (re: “That must make you angry…”), I do the same thing with my toxic father. I did the following, also, with my controlling mother when she was still alive and when she’d make passive-aggressive manipulative comments. This has helped me immensely. The following technique has helped me, in the heat of the moment, emotionally distance myself from the screwed up family conversation dynamic enough in order to respond differently than I would have in the past.

It’s called Bug Watching. Bear with me for a couple of minutes as I explain.

Imagine that you are a world-reknowned bug expert (entomologist) doing research in the Amazon rain forest. The toxic person you’re dealing with is the bug and you are the Bug Watcher. For me, this works best if I have David Attenborough’s voice narrating a running commentary in my head. You know, he’s that awesome guy who narrates all of the really great nature documentaries on PBS and BBC. Here’s how the commentary might go:

(David Attenborough’s voice starts talking)
“And here we are once again, ladies and gentlemen, deep in the Amazon rain forest with Dr So-and-So. She is doing field research and suspects that she might have discovered a new species of insect. Let’s sit back and watch while she makes some observations.”

(the Bug - your dad and/or mom - starts doing or saying something toxic, manipulative, etc. This pushes your buttons of course.)

(David A. starts talking again)
“Oh look! The insect is doing some unusual sort of dance. I wonder what this means? Let’s watch Dr. So-and-So make notes in her field journal.”

(out loud, you might respond to your dad with something like “You seem upset,” and then your dad goes off on a tirade for a few minutes, yelling at you the whole time and attempting to shame you and make you feel embarrassed.)

(David A. starts talking again in your head)
“Oh my! The insect is really getting excited now. Would you LOOK at that! This is quite something, ladies and gentlemen. The insect can turn its head around a whole 360 degrees! Now it is trying to spit venom at Dr. So-and-So. It’s a good thing that Dr. So-and-So came prepared with proper equipment and safety gear today. This is quite remarkable. Truly ground-breaking footage we are seeing here today. What a treat, ladies and gentlemen…”

And so on and so on.

I guarantee you that this will help you see your dad in a totally different point of view.

Whenever I have to spend time with my toxic father, I use Bug Watching. It makes it so much easier to get through the visit. It makes it a lot easier to not get sucked into all of the same old dysfunctional family dynamic stuff that I used to get sucked into. Of course, my father doesn’t like it when I’m not playing my same old role like I used to. As a result, he gets more and more upset. And when he gets more and more upset, I just respond with a very neutral comment like:

  • I'm sorry that you're upset
  • This seems to trouble you quite a bit
  • Wow, that's really something
  • I haven't thought about it like that.
  • That's interesting
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^^This type of response is one of the techniques in Dance of Anger. Very emotionally mature and IF the other person is willing to engage differently, a great way to frame a constructive conversation.

@rockvillemom , you sound like you’re doing great with the new boundaries. Sending continued strength.

I just wanted to add that you can be understanding of and compassionate toward your mom for having also been a victim AND be angry at her for not having protected you from your mutual abuser.

Personally, I hope that at some point the two of you find a way to connect in a more real way for both of your sakes. I suspect there is much to be said that could lighten the way forward for both of you but that the current constructs of your relationship, namely her husband’s presence, make that very difficult.

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My mom pulled “the silent treatment” on me as a teen. Only once and not for that long. But I vowed then to never do it to anyone. I may be silent to gather my thoughts but then it’s time to talk.

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Another technique that can also be helpful: REPEAT BACK TO THE PERSON WHAT HE/SHE JUST SAID

Here’s a made-up conversation to demonstrate. I use this for times when the toxic person is being REALLY over the top mean, passive-aggressive, or manipulative. You know what I’m talking about…those times when Toxic Person says something to you, and your Spidey-sense starts going off and you’re thinking, “What the heck did he just say to me?” THAT is when you could use this.

In this example, “DF” = dear father.

DF: It sure would be nice if somebody came to visit.
(that is a passive-aggressive dig intended to get me riled up)
Me: Yes, it would be nice, wouldn’t it?
DF: After all, nobody comes to visit.
Me: Nobody comes to visit?
DF: Our door is always open, you know.
Me: Your door is always open?
DF: Not literally open, but you know what I mean.
Me: What do you mean?
DF: You can come visit any time.
Me: I can come visit any time?
DF: Yes. You can. I don’t know why I have to keep telling you this.
Me: You have to keep telling me this?
DF: YES! (he’s really getting mad now) That’s what children should do! Honor their parents! I had to make regular trips to visit my parents and now you’re supposed to visit me. I’m entitled to a visit.
Me: You’re entitled to a visit?
DF: Yes! What is your problem? After all I’ve done for you, this is how you treat me!
Me: After all I’ve done for you?
DF: Oh just forget it. I guess I’ll just rot away here by myself and nobody will care about me.

The Toxic Person gets really frustrated by a conversational exchange like this because:

  1. You are not taking their bait.
  1. You are talking with them, but you really aren't saying anything of substance.
  2. In fact, it's like the Toxic Person is having a conversation with himself.
  3. Toxic Person does not like having a conversation with just himself because for whatever reason, he needs external stimuli/input to validate his view of himself: that he is more important than you, that you are here to serve and worship him.
  4. You are not fawning all over the Toxic Person, begging to not take away their love, approval, affection, etc.
  5. Using the Boat Rocking analogy, you are refusing to steady the boat in the above conversation. And the more upset the Toxic Person gets, the more the boat rocks. Toxic Person ends up rocking the boat so much that he almost falls out of the boat.
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@tucsonmom, while I am very sorry that you know so much about these situations, I very much appreciate your generosity in sharing these insights and techniques. There is always a lot to learn on CC, from bread baking to bag selection to wedding planning, but your posts will resonate with many readers for years. Thank you.

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I work for a not-for-profit agency that provides services for seniors. I can’t tell you how many seniors I deal with who are home-bound and have no friends or family to help them. When I start talking to them, I sometimes discover that they have a son or daughter who lives very close by but with whom they have minimal or no contact. It is so easy to assume that their family is heartless and uncaring. Sadly after talking to some of these people I understand why they are on their own and family has chosen to distance themselves. I start off assuming that they have become difficult to deal with due to aging, but often it becomes obvious that they were always difficult and sometimes just flat out not nice. It’s too bad that they are nearing the end of their lives and still haven’t figured out why they are alone.

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OP: We’re all here for you. You’ve begun the process of finally cutting the umbilical cord from your dad. That can be stressful and sometimes a little overwhelming and scary. Everything is going to be ok in the long run. This whole experience is going to entail a lot of personal growth for you. It’s not going to be fun, but you’ll come out of this an even more amazing person than you already are. Hang in there.

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Thanks to all! And the silence continues…

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Maybe they are starting to realize they crossed a line…nah, but enjoy the peace and time for personal reflection. It’s probably easier to do that without the press of phone calls and demands.

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I think that the method or repeating back what someone has said can be effective but that the point isn’t to let them rock themselves out of the boat but to get to a point where they can engage productively with you. It’s similar to saying to your whining child “I can’t hear what you’re saying when you use that voice” but responding when they make a polite request in a normal voice. It’s also meant to show that you are listening.

So in the example above, repeating the ridiculous and/or angry statements is helpful. Of course someone comes to visit – you’re there! But being clinical, as @tucsonmom suggests in her bug analogy (which is a terrific way to disengage emotionally), allows a few openings to appear. For example, saying “Tell me more about visiting your parents” or “Are you worried that you’ll be alone and nobody cares for you?” just MAY allow you to pull back that mask of anger and see what’s it’s covering. Maybe the parent hated visiting his parents and felt incredible guilt about that, maybe he felt abandoned when they passed – a lot of times anger is triggered when the person encounters a situation which is similar to one which originally was painful. (i.e., someone who lost a parent at age 13 may become quite distant with their own child when that child is 13.) And when that authentic conversation starts, you will need to engage emotionally as well and be a little less clinical and little more real. Don’t forget that one of the things an angry person is trying to do is engage. You can do that but using a different currency.

It’s hard to be on the receiving end of anger. Everyone has to find a way to deal with angry people, and developing a toolbox is invaluable. It’s helpful to remember that for the person dishing it out, anger is often the secondary emotion and it’s more comfortable and powerful than the primary emotion, which may be fear, sadness, or hurt. Think about how often a parent will yell at a kid who runs out into traffic – they are actually really experiencing the fear of that kid having come so close to serious harm! A lot of people who suffer from anxiety have a need to control things and people around them and may be abusive in the way they try to do it, but really, they are very fearful. Often, people who are grieving a loss express anger because the hurt is so powerfully painful.

Which is all to say, yes these tools help you manage, but hopefully they’ll be put to even better use. I’d like to believe that people deserve a chance to be their better selves, even if they’ve logged in 8 decades on earth as something less, and that some of them just may make it there.

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Stay strong @rockvillemom