@CaMom13 I completely agree with you. When my niece applied to law schools, there was a very clear LIST, and information on actual rankings. In this process, opinions seem to weigh more than the information to back them up. I don’t understand the taboos and I never will. Is there some CC police force that monitors comments? What is the punishment? Where is the data!?
@TexasMTDad I think it should be in black and white. It seems to me that about 30-40 schools can rationally fluctuate into that “Top 20 list”. I think they like to keep it that way.
And how do we decide which school is in each tier? That’s the problem.
I think law schools probably have pretty objective criteria vs. Musical Theatre… maybe CCM teaches the best dance, Michigan the best acting, and CMU the best vocals. Also, do they have the best programs because they attract the best students? I dunno.
I can google best MT programs and come up with 5 lists that have the same 3 top schools and then the next 7 are different on each list.
But I promise if y’all want to compile a list, I will read it over and over until I have memorized it.
@CaMom13 I also would love to have some basic acceptance rate data for theatre programs and have been trying to collect as much as I can here and other places online. I would never expect anyone to rank in terms of perceived quality. I think that could even vary depending on what a specific student is looking for - e.g. an experienced dancer going into college program may want more than “great” dance training generally - might be important for them to have more variety of classes and leveling.
I also understand that with any audition-based program everything should be considered a “reach.” But it would be super helpful to know if programs accept 2% or 10% or 25% etc. Love the advice to cast a wide net (and have a BA nonaudition safety school) but hard to know if you’re casting wide net if you don’t have basic acceptance information readily available.
People seem to get this kind of information most often when they visit schools or when their kids audition at schools. I’ve seen posts here where someone gives application and acceptance data that they were told at an info session. It’s simply not feasible to visit schools ahead of time and audition time is too late to find out you’ve only applied to schools that all have 2% acceptance rates plus 2 BA safeties.
I think you could come up with a rating system of some kind, 1 - 5 for multiple categories, and then rate each with an ultimate ranking. Would it be perfect, no, but it could be very useful for peeps who have zero clue on many of the schools. I counted 65 schools listed on the acceptance thread. I didn’t know about most of them, even after reading CC for months and months. Needless to say, my D didn’t apply to the majority of them, and I’m wishing that I would have know about some of them after having read comments on them.
@4angels - I tend to think it is more effective to look at the schools in terms of the competitivenss within artistic admission instead of tiers - so that would be EXTREME REACH/LOTTERY (less than 3% acceptance rate), REACH (4%-10%), FITS (could be broken down into more competitive fit at 10%-15/20% , and less competitive fit at 15/20%+), and NON-AUDITION SAFETIES. The reason for this shift (tier-thinking to competitiveness-thinking) is that great programs exist across all of the categories, and “tiers” tend to insinuate lesser quality, even inadvertently. Knowing this info is important so that you can craft a BALANCED list, regarding difficulty of artistic admission.
We actually broke things down even further, and categorized based upon things programs were known for. See below and hope this helps! And always remeber that no list is exhaustive and YMMV.
Programs with a dance focus/dance track:
BOCO
Roosevelt
Rider
FSU
TxSt
CCM
PP
Pace
Marymount Manhattan
Hartt
Acting focus:
UNCSA
Otterbein
CMU
Syracuse
Wright St
Emerson
Webster
SUNY Purchase
Julliard
U o Arizona
Music focus:
BW
Shenandoah
Arizona State
NYU Steinhardt
Academics weighed more heavily/given more focus:
NYU
Michigan
Elon
Northwestern
FSU
Penn St
Indiana
American
JMU
TCU
UCLA
Miami
U o Oklahoma
Newer/revamped programs:
Ohio U
Texas Tech
U o Arizona
Molloy/CAP 21
Manhattan SoM
Shenandoah
Rutgers
BU
W Carolina U
Western Conn
UNC Greensboro
Discounted/ lower tuition:
TxSt
FSU
Montclair
Missouri St
W Carolina U
Fits (both more, designated with , and less)/Hidden gems:
Ill Wes
American
Ball St
U N Colorado
CCU*
Ohio N
Viterbo*
W Mich
U Arts*
UCF
MM*
Rider*
JMU
Molloy*
Wagner
Montclair*
SUNY Fred
Temple
Hartt*
Roosevelt
CCPA
Catholic U
UWSP
Wright St*
Non-audition safeties:
Muhlenberg
Hofstra
Loyola Chi
U Tulsa
Chris newport
Cal St
Extreme/ Lottery/Reach:
Michiagn
CMU
CCM
BW
Penn St
FSU
Syracuse
Ithaca
Elon
TxSt
NYU
Pace
NW
Millikin
Shen
Otterbein
OkCityU
BoCo
@beachymom That’s so incredibly helpful. Thank you so much for posting.
@beachymom NOW we are talking! I love this list! I would definitely add OKCU to Vocal-driven programs and Missouri State University for new/revamped because of Robert Westenberg being new and such a heavy hitter! Where would Coastal Carolina fit on this one? I would also add a category for highly selective programs that take very small numbers. But this is great! Also can you clarify the “Fits” category by what you meant?
Belmont and OkCU should be added to the music focus list. I accidentally left it off. Sorry all!
As someone who helps students create “balanced” school lists as much as is possible, I caution anyone to think of anything that is audition-based as a fit. Almost all audition-based programs are reaches for all because of the great amount of subjectivity in this process: in other words, many students who get into “lottery” schools get rejected from several “fit” schools. I am already seeing that this year with my students, even with many schools’ admissions offers still to be completed. In addition, a schools’ percentage of acceptees can change radically from one year to another (usually decreasing signficantly - if, for example, a student from a lesser-know school is cast in a highly-publicized role, like “the new Regina George,” etc.)
Some other thoughts:
- I do love the "lottery" designation for the very most competitive schools (numerically) - they're a crapshoot for everyone!
- I think it's very helpful to see the % of auditionees accepted (that's the data we use and we get it from the programs as much as possible).
- The data I know counters some of the "fits" in the above list - Ball State and Rider, for example, take under 10%.
- Any school that attends Unifieds likely takes under 10% b/c of their auditionees due to the volume of students they see.
- The increasing prevalence of prescreen changes the list game significantly.
- Setting up a rubric like @BWmama suggests is an AWESOME idea!
@4angels - Coastal carolina is also known as CCU, it is a *FIT.
More competitive fits are desginated with an *, and include schools with approximate acceptance rates of 10%-15% or 20%. Less competitve fits would have approximate acceptance rates of 15/20% and higher.
I combined lottery, extreme reach and reach, as they all accept leass than 10%. The lottery schools with the smallest percentage of admits are consistently: Michigan, Carnegie Melon and CCM. The remaining ones is this category revolve, and in looking at the list would fall between BW-Pace. I would say that NW-BOCO (on the original post above) would be “honorable mentions”, but still uber competitive.
@beachymom I’m telling you- big respect for your research! How about Webster? Would that make any of these? I have heard both Webster and IWU are incredibly selective.
@CoachC - good thoughts!
The numbers can change eavery year, and this was based on our research that started during my son’s junior year in high school; he is currently a college freshman. My data could be “old” in terms of this crazy game, such as in the cases of Ball St and Rider.
Maybe “target” would be a better term than “fit” - meaning the programs are less competitive, but likely hitting in the range for many students?
Prescreens definitely change the landscape.
You mentioned variability in results (lottery v fit) - this happened to us. My S was admitted to one 1 lottery school and 1 extreme reach (both programs often found in the infamous top 5 lists, and was also redirected to the BA w MT concentration at Rider, and waitlisted at another “fit” (later admitted).
Would this list only apply to MT or would it coincide with acting?
Any thoughts on Utah? They audition at Unifieds, and the program looks great, but no one is talking about it and there is not a separate page for this program.
@beachymom found webster!
I really don’t know about Utah. Has it been recently revamped?
@katzenbogen
@morgan830 - this is pretty specific to MT
@4angels Ill Wes is on the fit/ hidden gem list I think!
@katzenbogen Was told by an experienced consultant at NY Unis that Utah is a great, up and coming program. “A hidden gem” is what she called it.
@katzenbogen I feel the same about Missouri State.