<p>Worth perusing. </p>
<p>[The</a> Ivy Delusion - Magazine - The Atlantic](<a href=“http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1969/12/the-ivy-delusion/8397/1/]The”>The Ivy Delusion - The Atlantic)</p>
<p>Classic line:</p>
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<p>In the comments there’s a bit of a thread in which one reader contends that America’s elite colleges take in too few of the elite students, particularly when compared to other nations and how many students their elite colleges take in. The problem – imo – with that criticism is that he (and most people) define “elite university” too restrictively. Harvard Yale Princeton Stanford may have the name cachet to separate themselves from the pack, but there’s really no settling for second-best or something inferior if you expand the list to include the top 20 LACs and the top 20 universities. (I’ll leave it to others to decide which ones constitute the “top” in those groups.) There are plenty of top students who turn down offers of admission from HYPS for other colleges where the students believe they will get a superior education.</p>
<p>This applies to the boarding school universe as well. The list of the very best boarding schools out there is quite large but people tend to restrict the list to an absurdly small group, largely based on cachet and a fetish for validation.</p>
<p>Unlike other countries, America has an embarrassment of riches when it comes to opportunities our young people enjoy for obtaining an excellent college education. As the above quote that I highlighted notes, we just fail to see this, casting off a Rutgers education as being akin to flipping burgers at McDonald’s after high school graduation.</p>
<p>I think a good way to see how our perceptions disconnect from reality is to take a look at college athletics and see how the perceived elite colleges have no exclusive on developing the elite talent. Check out the 2011 NFL Pro Bowl – the best football talent in America – and consider how many players on the roster did not come from the football powerhouse colleges we might classify as being elite:</p>
<p>[2011</a> NFL Pro Bowl Roster By College Program - BC Interruption](<a href=“http://www.bcinterruption.com/pages/2011-nfl-pro-bowl-roster-by-college-program]2011”>2011 NFL Pro Bowl Roster By College Program - BC Interruption)</p>
<p>59 colleges are represented. You don’t have to go to Southern Cal (2 players) or Florida (1 player) or Ohio State (1) to be the best of the best. Two colleges have more than three players (Miami - 8; Tennessee - 5) and two more have three players (Michigan and Cal-Berkeley). The other 55 colleges produced one or two players…with some of them being “elite” in the public’s eyes while others, like Kent State, NC State, Rutgers and Western Michigan are tied for 5th among colleges with most alums named to the 2011 Pro Bowl roster.</p>
<p>One ought to consider this heartening:</p>
<p>[American</a> universities top reputation rankings - Find the top 100 worldwide | News | guardian.co.uk](<a href=“American universities top reputation rankings - Find the top 100 worldwide | News | theguardian.com”>American universities top reputation rankings - Find the top 100 worldwide | News | theguardian.com)</p>
<p>Does anyone know how old Caitlin Flanagan’s twins are? There’s a great deal of vitriol in her prose on “The Good Mothers.” </p>
<p>At this point, my older children, my husband and I have read Amy Chua’s book. We don’t practice her style of parenting, but we aren’t quailing in fear of the results of such parenting. For what it’s worth, both children were cheering for Lulu. If both sets of grandparents, Jewish and Chinese, think your parenting’s over the top, there’s an outside chance your parenting’s over the top.</p>
<p>I’m also unclear on the value of insisting your children become concert pianists or violinists. I do know a Western family whose daughter makes a living as a concert viola-ist,(sp?) and she does it from her much-maligned Western passion. </p>
<p>It’s fascinating how many people who haven’t read the book are willing to suppose that the “Tiger Mother” style of parenting is superior. I enjoyed Sandra Tsing-Loh’s take on the issue, in the same Atlantic issue: [Sympathy</a> for the Tiger Moms - Magazine - The Atlantic](<a href=“http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1969/12/sympathy-for-the-tiger-moms/8399/1/]Sympathy”>Sympathy for the Tiger Moms - The Atlantic).</p>
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<p>Periwinkle - I agree with you on the Tsing-Loh article.
It seems to me that a lot of this ‘chatter’ is in a myopic upper-middle to upper-class world. </p>
<p>From Flanagan’s article The Ivy Delusion
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<p>I agree with the above statement. Could you not replace Ivy League with HADES prep in the above statement?</p>
<p>My son’s goal for finding a bs ‘fit’ was a place where he can lead a balanced life (work and play/athletics at a reasonable pace). He has friends that thrive on the intense academic environment and they are eagerly reading their acceptances (as I type this) to the top HADES schools. We couldn’t be happier for them. </p>
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<p>I guess this is my biggest beef with the entire push for the Ivies and Race to Nowhere crowd. I always wonder ‘WHO’S goal is it?’ and Flanagan states it very well… it is what *** the good mothers want…***</p>
<p>Loved the article – and I didn’t get the sense that she was vitriolic towards the “good moms.” It is very much like this in our community – very flip floppy. “It is horrible how stressed our kids are. Johnny is taking all APs, we want him to get into Harvard…” All in the same breath.</p>
<p>I agree, mamakiwi – whose goal is it?</p>
<p>Astute12, I detect vitriol in passages such as the following:
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<p>I find it a particularly scathing passage.</p>
<p>I think the stress over college admissions comes about because there are more families who can pay tuition. It’s one consequence of mass affluence. Another article in the same issue of The Atlantic claims that 115,000 households possess fortunes of $25 million or more. Surely, a certain portion of those households want to send children to Harvard?</p>
<p>I happen to agree with the sentiment in the passage above. After watching The Race to Nowhere, I did think that the mothers who complained most vociferously about their children’s stress were responsible for most of the stress. Why, when sports, community service, video games and homework cause stress, is homework the villain?</p>
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<p>I loved that passage! It describes so many moms AND dads in our community. Our town is very affluent, with an increasing Korean population (30 percent at the high school). Although they won’t say it publicly, these parents are angry at the Asian families for taking spots in private high schools and colleges from their kids. They will use phrases like, “oh yes he is very academic, but not very creative” or “she plays the violin technically very well, but where is the passion?” when discussing Asian kids…it is heart breaking, really.</p>
<p>I recall a lawyer who came to Exeter to speak at assembly while I was an upper (or maybe a lower). He had gone to Harvard College, HLS and made partner at a BigLaw firm. All he could talk about was how we should take advantage of our youth and pursue our dreams before the responsibilities of being an adult caught up with us. He told us how precious time was and to spend it with our loved ones, and the things that really mattered. By the end of assembly the guy was on the verge of tears. It was easy to read between the lines, and see he done what was “expected of him,” had not spent time with his wife and kids and chased after a bronze ring until to discover it was, well a bronze ring. </p>
<p>Moral of the story, don’t destroy your kid’s life by imposing your dreams on them.</p>
<p>I don’t think that parents – at least not all parents – are trying to impose their dreams onto their children. I think, at least in my case, it has been about creating opportunities and making sure that as many doors and options remain open as possible. Some options will be there regardless of what choices you make. Other options get harder and harder to keep alive. The mistake, in my opinion, is when those “tough-to-keep-open” options morph from “options” to actual goals. And I think that happens all too often because as humans (and particularly as Americans) we have this hard-wired sense that a closed (or closing) door is a door we need to go through. The less attainable it becomes, the more desirable it becomes. So it’s no wonder that we get a little warped about what we’re doing. USN&WR actually builds this into their college ranking algorithm by giving considerable weight to admissions competitiveness when ranking the quality of a college. They’re effectively letting people who are a year removed from college, most of whom won’t get accepted at these more competitive colleges, vote on how good the colleges are. And people pay for that, so it’s not like USN&WR is misleading anyone. For parents, college admissions is often the last chance for them to help out with their “opportunity-creating” agenda, so I think it’s only natural for many of them to feel driven to push for the Ivies. And it’s not a vicarious thing or a “dream imposition” thing as much as it is parents thinking that they’re being helpful.</p>
<p>Do you see it a real prevalent problem among boarding school parents - that they run their kids’ life and pressure them to get into an ivy? To me, a “tiger mother” would never let her kid go to a boarding school in the first place (not only would she have to allow a sleepover but she let her sleepover every night!). I think most BS parents are relatively open minded and are willing to take the risk of “losing control” so their kids can grow stronger and more independent. But, like you said, parents who are willing to be this “aggressive” in getting their kids the best education would want them to go to the best colleges too (how to define the best is another matter. Ivies obviously are very popular but not all parents are buying it, for example the crowd on this forum). I think that’s understandable as you have pointed out it’s about maximizing the “options” or “opportunities”. </p>
<p>I don’t think it’s fair to depict these BS parents as thoughtlessly “ivy crazy”. I don’t even think it’s fair to say that about Amy Chua. They, like Amy Chua, have high expectations of their kids, and ask/push them to be ambitious and work hard. However, no one I know has that explicit “Harvard or bust” attitude to their kids. Are some of them “ivy fans”? You bet. But what’s wrong with that? You can rave about a certain school that’s not so famous, but loving Harvard is a sin?</p>
<p>The senior year of my older son was aggravated by my side comments pertaining to his possibility of attending the local Community College. When I was told I sounded like his Grandfather it really hit me. Back then for me it was Harvard or nothing and it was all extremely discouraging and disheartening. I would be the first generation not to attend Harvard since the 1800’s, horrors! Anyway, I promptly stopped riding my son which was a load off his mind and let him do his magic. He’s really good at obtaining his goals when I just leave him be. He’s doing just fine now (actually quite well) and his younger brother will also benefit by my biting my tongue and keeping my mouth shut, at least most of the time.</p>
<p>I am puzzled by parents who thought it’s OK to encourage their kids to be President or Michael Jordan when they grow up but not OK to encourage them to go to Harvard. The kids may never be the President or Michael Jordan, or never go to Harvard. But what’s wrong for them to have it as one of the many aspirations?</p>
<p>Here’s my concern in a nutshell and I see it a lot with students whose parent pressure them to attend MIT (or my hubby who interviews applicants clearly looking at med school only because it is a parent expectation).</p>
<p>Parents are too close to the situation to be objective in many cases. The ones that read ad naseum and try to make sense of numbers to push their children to the “perfect” choice when a different path might have been better.</p>
<p>Many of the people who “push” Ivy League schools didn’t attend them and therefore chase the illusion based on reputation, not reality. Ivy’s are good for some students and not others. Kind of like pushing a girl to go to Yale without researching the high rate of reported harrassment.</p>
<p>Many alum push their children to follow their footsteps not recognizing those children have different personalities, goals, dreams. And some don’t admit that their own sojourn wasn’t that hot or the perceived “benefits” didn’t materialize.</p>
<p>And many boarding school kids are unhappy not because of the crushing workload, but because they’re still being scrutinized by parents at home just sure that getting anything less than 100 has destroyed any chance of them getting into XYZ famous school. It’s pathetic and sad and demoralizing for staff and students alike. A student at my alma mater attempted suicide because he was scared to show his parents a “B” on his report card. And he wasn’t the only one.</p>
<p>Some parents exhibit a sort of desperate need to get children into “the club” and an odd lack of awareness that part of what makes up that “club” are other social aspects and assets the family doesn’t possess. So if you attend an IVY hoping for a shot at big law firm, but don’t understand that the well connected kids get first shot (at the sororities, the fraternities, the secret societies, etc.) Or that for those without “connections” it isn’t the grades as much as possessing the skills to navigate that culture.</p>
<p>Parents should guide, but not dictate. Nothing wrong with pushing for the stars. But allowing students to follow their own path in the end is the best course of action.</p>
<p>From my fortune cookie: Be bold, brave and forthright and the bold, the brave and forthright will gather round you.</p>
<p>Tolkien, why Harvard? I’m not trying to be a smart-alek, I’m asking, why do you see attending Harvard as a worthy goal? If you want to attend college with the social elite, there are a wide range of schools which enroll the children of the elite. I feel that many parents don’t know much about the colleges they think they want their children to attend.</p>
<p>Why am I not obsessed with Harvard? If anyone’s a Harvard alum, please chime in to correct my assumptions.</p>
<p>Harvard has a large endowment, but they made foolhardy investment decisions just before the crash. </p>
<p>Harvard is renowned for the lecture/section man approach to education. </p>
<p>Some of my relatives attended Harvard. They agree, “It’s not the courses, it’s the people you meet.” (Note: they attended Harvard decades ago, the Harvard of today might be different.)</p>
<p>Those relatives who attended Harvard want their descendants to attend fine colleges and universities–but not Harvard. </p>
<p>Nevertheless, if one of my children wanted to apply to Harvard, I wouldn’t forbid it. I wouldn’t put it on my mental list of “colleges to discuss with child,” though.</p>
<p>@Periwinkle, I am using Harvard as an example the same way as I use President or Michael Jordan. It could be any school, Ivy or not. What I am trying to say is that it’s OK for kids to set a big goal and work towards it. Kids may not reach it, and that’s OK too, as long as they learn something in the journey. However I am bothered by some of the discussions here that we should not encourage our kids to reach higher because of “fit”. many of great people in history were not “fit” to be great. They challenged themselves to reach greatness.</p>
<p>As a parent who has tried NOT to helicoptor and NOT to push my Ivy college on my S, this thread hit a nerve. I will chime in that the dance between guidance and allowing DC to forge his own path it is very very difficult in BS. We are still talking about teens (often times closer to children than adults). Much of this thread seems more appropriate to how one deals with a kid in college than in high school, with the exception of Exie’s point about making kids miserables over Bs. From our experience, I have learned that hands off to let them grow and in the hands of the BS, is not the really the right answer. They need some guidance in terms of goals, dreams, direction. My S is finishing his sophomore year and has no idea about where he might want to go to college, and even less about how competitive college admissions are, and I believe I’d be remiss if I didn’t try to guide him with everthing from course selections, EC choices, summer options, the importance of good (not perfect) grades, thinking about career interests, etc. so he will have opportunities when it does come time for colleges.</p>
<p>Tolkien, I know many people believe in “Ivy League or bust.” (Or Stanford, MIT, etc.)</p>
<p>I’m not convinced that one can decide that Princeton is better than Williams. Or Columbia better than Cornell. Given a choice between the University of Chicago or Harvard, I can’t declare one college “higher” than the other. From my current state of general knowledge of schools, I can’t declare that Dartmouth is automatically better than Amherst. </p>
<p>Certainly, there are some which will be more impressive at cocktail parties, but beyond that? </p>
<p>When my sophomore decides the colleges she’d like to visit, I’ll be comparing colleges with an eye to the fit. I know a number of people who attended Ivies and people who attended non-Ivies. I don’t see a pattern of Ivy attendance=more success. There might be a pattern of wealthy background=Ivy attendance.</p>
<p>There’s guidance, and there’s dictatorship. Some parents don’t know the difference and don’t find out until their kid is dropping out, a suicide risk, or dead.</p>
<p>Mostly I’m referring to those “occasional” posts we see here on the boards where kids are pushed to the brink by parents insisting they eschew the qualitative side of a BS experience in favor of taking an overload of AP courses. Parents who are stressing that the student won’t get into an IVY (or similar) before the student has set foot on a BS campus, and reaming them over what are generally good grades.</p>
<p>And I think - how demoralizing for students dreaming of going to other schools to be told that by going to an IVY you meet a better subset of students.</p>
<p>Hmm - I remember those schools also being filled with rich entitled brats, druggies, slackers, and the same gamut of students you find in other schools.</p>
<p>Many don’t heed the advice of parents who had to navigate the process themselves or are alum. Having been on staff at Harvard, and having friends on staff at several IVY’s I can honestly say you may get what you wish for - but it may not be what you need. </p>
<p>Four years is a long time to spend at a college where you don’t fit and will be miserable because some surrogate chose for you based on name, and some statistic in a newspaper.</p>
<p>But - those who believe will not be swayed, those - forewarned will approach the process more organically - by casting a wide net and looking for the right fit (academic and emotional). Like I said - those “magical” connections people hope to make don’t often materialize in the form the parent hopes.</p>