The Ivy Delusion: The real reason the good mothers are so rattled by Amy Chua

Prep School Admissions Prep School Parents
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<p>@Periwinkle. I agree with you that Williams is “better” than Princeton for some people and the other way around for other people. It all comes down to individual fit. However the point I try to make is that there is nothing wrong for kids to set Princeton/Williams as a worthwhile goal for them while attending high school. It doesn’t matter whether you think Princeton/Williams is a great fit for you or not if Princeton/Williams doesn’t think you are a fit for them. </p>

<p>It’s definitely not healthy for parents to have an “Ivy or bust” mentality, but I would argue it is also a disservice to our beloved kids if we don’t encourage them to set a higher goal and strive towards it. As grinzing noted, “we are still talking about teens” here.</p>

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<p>I think that every parent in my town hopes that their child will get into a good school. At last count there were over 150 families in my town who went to DH’s alma mater. We live near another well known larger IVY. I’m assuming there are 300 plus families that have graduated from that IVY. DH loved his sojourn at his IVY. He (and I) would like our children to have a shot there. Given what we have learned about the competitive admissions process this will be something of a lottery. Also, the same at the othe top 25 LACs and top 25 universities.</p>

<p>College and yes (even more so) boarding school is about credentialing. The process of credentialling enables America’s professional class to reproduce itself. Typically, we are not passing along a factory, a business (although obviously in some cases this still happens) but the upper middle class in America is trying to pass along the ability to earn that wealth and this is where credentials come into play.</p>

<p>A previous poster on this thread mentioned that BS is also about the social aspects needed to navigate the “club” YES and YES, in many respects this is the transformative aspect of BS’s that have been written about recently (check the thread on BS parent’s bookshelf — anyway something like that). Look, if Harvard or another IVY isn’t a good fit for C, then I’m sure there is a top LAC that would be. However, in order to get into one of the top LACs or Unis your child has to jump through a lot of hoops. Most parents in my town know this…and I think most parents who have successfully navigated their children into BS also know this. It just seems that it is politically incorrect to state this.</p>

<p>YMMV</p>

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<p>I will agree with that - my daughter is learning a lot about social interactions and navigating mine fields that she would not have learned if she’d stayed home. It’s one thing for us to tell our kids about it but it’s another thing to have to “live it” 24-7</p>

<p>BS culture and day to day living is a great prep for college - any college - but especially those that tend to attract a certain subset of society. </p>

<p>Her first month at BS was an eye-opener. Now it’s just part of the daily fabric.</p>

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<p>Well said, flowers. This shouldn’t be a discussion about whether ivies are better than LACs. Ivies or top LACs, more and more of which have an admit rate lower than 20%, take a lot of efforts and luck to reach. You can decide whether an ivy or a top LAC is a better fit - if and when they are available/possible options to you. I personally thnk Harvard’s undergraduate education is not the best and LACs are a better option for many students - the ones who haven’t gone though and done well in a well balanced and rigorous high school in particular. However, if you think the wealth, the druggies, and slackers are fewer in lesser colleges (be it a second tier private school or a public “party school”), think again. And if you think the entitled having the first pick of everything is not a social issue that exists everywhere but rather a problem in HYP, have a reality check again.</p>

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<p>It looks like people now agree to use “good schools” instead of “Ivy” as their goals. :D</p>

<p>Among these “good schools”, they are always some “better schools” including but of course not limited to those “usual suspects”, so we are back to square one. :D</p>

<p>Really I don’t see anything wrong setting Ivy/MIT/Stanford/Top LAC etc as goals, as long as people understand they are a reach, and feel fine if they go elsewhere.</p>

<p>Personally I disagree BS or college is just about a process. The process will be there for us regardless, what can differ is the result. So let the “rat race” begin. :D</p>

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<p>Great discussion - this is touching on a lot of the things that we all worry about, and wish we had clearer answers for. </p>

<p>This reminds me of what my grandfather (midwestern farm boy turned Naval officer) told my father as he (dad) headed off to Exeter and Harvard - “the SVP may come from the Ivy League, but the president of the company probably comes from a small college somewhere out in the midwest that you’ve never heard of”. </p>

<p>Unless (and perhaps even if) you’re into lawyering or banking, that may very well still hold. </p>

<p>Not to dump on Ivies or well-known boarding schools - I can’t, they made me who I am - but I’m doing my damndest to set my kids up to not have to worry so much about brand names.</p>

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<p>ssacd: +1 on everything you said.</p>

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<p>thanks SevenDad - </p>

<p>and just to be clear - I do agree with Amy Chua that kids are strong, and that expecting them to be strong and work hard is a positive thing. I agree that when a teacher tells you your kid is not working hard enough, it’s the kid’s problem not the teacher’s problem (my son, who spent much of last year grounded, will back me up on that one!) I don’t take it to the extreme that she does - but I have something in common with her, for sure. </p>

<p>But when it comes to process vs results - well, for me education is a process. And a good process can carry you through so many short term set backs. </p>

<p>From a practical point - I just think it’s good for your mental health to believe in the process of working hard, and try to enjoy it - because sometimes the results will be there (the Ivy acceptance, the selection to Varsity, the big deal, the multimillion payout, whatever), but sometimes they won’t, and you’ll still have to be able to tell youself that you did something worth while. So that’s what I mean when I say I don’t want my kids to worry about brand names and connections, I want them to spend their time (and my hard-earned bucks) figuring out how to enjoy working hard with whatever and whoever life throws at them. </p>

<p>(will now climb down from soapbox)</p>

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<p>^^Thats very wise, but sometimes it depends on what kind of kid you are working with. Ask grinzing. Some kids do need more pushing and guidance than others. It’s a tricky balance.</p>

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<p>“Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. Begin it now.” Goethe</p>

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<p>Calling out someone else’s struggles to make a point isn’t fair game in my opinion.</p>

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<p>You are right when you are right. Apologies grinzing. I didn’t think.</p>

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<p>Every kid different - absolutely. And the proper carrot and stick for one won’t work for another. </p>

<p>That being said, I think the carrot and stick combo is the tool, not the goal. Sure, you want to motivate the kids - so you decide what the right level of hands-on or hands-off guidance is for your specific kid. </p>

<p>But what are we guiding or nudging or gently sheep-dogging them towards? Is it an Ivy/LAC/Cocktail Party Conversation Stopper? Is it a person who earns enough to afford own living space after graduation? Is it a person who can demonstrate resilience in good times and bad? Is it a person who is going to spend their life pulling a little more than their own weight, rather than a little less? All important (even the cocktail party conversation stopper - what the heck, we’re all human). But some more important than others.</p>

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<p>One of Amy Chua’s ideas is that when parents <em>demand</em> the kids achieve the unthinkable by working hard and reaching high (e.g. “the piano practice battle”), the kids not only gain knowledge or skills but more importantly learn the lessons that if one makes enough efforts one can overcome the difficulties that seemed impossible to overcome, through which self confidence is gained. So I guess her approach, put in the context of ssacd’s “model”, would be to develop a person who can make the most out of even the worst situations, and are always capable of taking on more if they want to.</p>

<p>Is it a perfect way of parenting? Few people think so although I think many people can learn from her as they tend to be on the extreme of the other end. What we need to consider is that sooner or later most people will hit the “bottleneck” in a certain area. If we teach our children to be used to living with nothing less than a winner, is that sustainable and will they be happy in life? And that’s where I am going - to justify the BS route. :slight_smile: By jumping in a “big pond with lots of big fish”, our kids will learn over the 4 years that there is no such thing as you can rely on being smart and be on top without hard work, that you may be ahead of others because of your prior preparation but it won’t be long if you stop working hard, that you can’t be the winner in everything, that having bigger goals and reaching high you are not alone, and that there are many ways in which one can excel and shine…</p>

<p>If that sounds too idealistic, I agree it is to some degree. As others have pointed out, we are working with teens living in a digital world, who are easily getting distracted, lose focus and tempted to go for “instant gratifications”. There are of course those “perfectionists” where parents job is to remind them to relax and smell the roses a bit on their way to <em>success", but more often than not, with the 13/14 year olds, boys in particular, parents might find that their children do need a constant nudge so they can keep moving forward. In a way, it’s as simple as an age thing - they are just not mature enough, but as parents they want to make the most out of the situation so their kids don’t *waste</em> too much of their talents and the opportunities. </p>

<p>How much a parent can do when the kid is in BS is another story. You just keep trying because you are parents. Parents do a lot of useless things for (or they think) their kids, such as posting on this board. ;)</p>

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<p>When people on this forum mention schools they think are worthy alternatives to the Ivies (e.g., on this thread, Williams, U. Chicago, Amherst), they are often schools that turn down at least 8 out of 10 applicants. Not much if any easier to achieve than an Ivy admission, and in highly educated circles not even a trade-off in prestige. For some kids they are a good fit, for others Yale would be better. And yet I suspect that if a parent on this forum said, “I hope my child can get into Williams or Amherst”, it would elicit less negativity than “I hope my child can get into Harvard or Yale.” Just guessing.</p>

<p>All reasonable parents hope for schools that are great fits for their kids. For a few of our kids, those schools will be Andover, Exeter, Harvard, Yale. Nothing wrong with that.</p>

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<p>^^I hear what you’re saying, but to my mind the Q still remains, if it ISN’T about fit–but more flatout prestige/cachet–for the OTHER attendees at the institution, doesn’t that alter your own child’s experience, even if it’s a fit for him/her? This was my own experience at 2 of the 4 institutions you list above…seemed like good fit going in, but the attitudes of my fellow students were anything but the kind of enlightened ironic disregard for the pedigree we seem to be postulating. Perhaps times have changed…</p>

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<p>Well said, lemonade. “All reasonable parents hope for schools that are great fits for their kids”. It’s not healthy to have the “Ivy or Bust” mentality, but it is also ill informed to automatically associate HADES/IVY with “social elites”. Ironically I see more social-economical and racial diversity at Andover/Harvard than at our local BS and some of top LACs. Just my personal observation. I suppose there might be something to do with their need-blind FA policies.</p>

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<p>Read The Price of Admission.</p>

<p>Anecdote is not data. The interactive graphic at the Chronicle of Education is worth a look: [How</a> Elite Colleges Still Aren’t Diverse - NYTimes.com](<a href=“How Elite Colleges Still Aren't Diverse - The New York Times”>How Elite Colleges Still Aren't Diverse - The New York Times)</p>

<p>[Why</a> So Many Applications for So Few Elite Spots? Continuing the Discussion - NYTimes.com](<a href=“Why So Many Applications for So Few Elite Spots? Continuing the Discussion - The New York Times”>Why So Many Applications for So Few Elite Spots? Continuing the Discussion - The New York Times)</p>

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<p>ouch - was that last link specially set for me to stumble on the “recent ivy grad” whose conclusion was “those of you who didn’t get in to the ivies weren’t chosen because you couldn’t cut it” - not sure that was what we had in mind when we talk about the special quality that Ivy grads are supposed to have… </p>

<p>back to PelicanDad’s comment about asking who your kid is going to be surrounded by, for 4 years and your hard-earned money. I’m willing to pay - but I would like to get something more lasting than “credentials”, and would rather not pay immense amounts of money to deposit my kid into a group which contains individuals who think (see example above) that they are better than the rest of the species because the good lord selected them and only them to ascend the heights. </p>

<p>I know, I know - not all Ivy grads are little snots. Many of them make the best use possible of their education. So do graduates of other colleges. But that’s the point - to the extent that an Ivy education creates snots, it’s not worth the money, and to the extent that it creates someone truly grateful for his/her opportunity, it is comparable with any other opportunity to better oneself. </p>

<p>Absolutely encourage them to aim high - nothing wrong with that. But I don’t sense that the issue is aiming high, I sense that the issue is a perception of “winner take all”, with the winners being the Ivies (HADES, whatever) and the losers being the the other 99% of the population. </p>

<p>If that were the case, I’d be worried - but of the people I work with, respect, and trust - I don’t know how many of them are Ivy grads to start with, and I sure can’t tell the difference without asking. So if my kids go to an Ivy school, great, and if they don’t, great - I think/ hope they will turn out to be the kind of people that are in demand as co-workers, co-volunteers, friends, etc etc. And I’m pretty sure they are never going to be caught writing snotty little comments about how they are better than someone else because of where they went to school. </p>

<p>(Again, I don’t think that snotty comment I’m referring to is indicative of 100% of Ivy graduates, but i also don’t think he/she is alone in his/her snottiness). </p>

<p>About “credentials” - I’m going to just throw this one out there - if we emphasize education as a way to get “credentialed”, get connections, are we telling the kids that we don’t think they can do it on their own? That they need some kind of connection, some kind of helping hand, to make it? Heck, for the kind of money we are talking about, I would be disappointed if I get anything less than a graduate who has a plan to lead the solution to whatever problems they encounter.</p>

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<p>@Pelicandad, @ssacd - I think you both hit the nail on the head. </p>

<p>What I find disturbing is how so many people want Exeter or Andover or (fill in the elite blanks) without any real knowledge of what the school cultures are. And after a while - they “become” what they breed - especially my alma mater. Personally, I don’t think Exeter is the better for it.</p>

<p>I remember the Exeter student who gave us our tour and couldn’t get off the script because she was too busy trying to impress me with how smart she was and how great the school was. Okay - but I’d lived in “that” dorm hundreds of years ago. My daughter “lived” in that house the previous summer. I’d taken the classes, donated money. I didn’t need the newbie tour, I wanted to know what it was like “now” compared to my experience. Or how it compared to my daughter’s summer experience (summer was tough but a blast, school year less so from what I gathered on these boards).</p>

<p>I remember the Asian student whose father told her to forgo humanities in order to double up on AP science courses - in her first year. We were able to intervene.</p>

<p>I don’t think there is anything wrong with kids and parents reaching for elites. I do think there is something wrong when the perception is that attaining that status makes them somehow “better” prepared, gives them a better social network, etc. and cements their place among the upper echelons of the gainfully employed. Kind of like some manna from heaven will come down or their children will be instantly annointed with the keys to the secret club. </p>

<p>Ummm - yes and but in so many other ways no.</p>