How about a group which contains individuals who think that they are better than the rest of the species but bitterly regret they have not been included in the “club”? The moral is there are all sorts of personalities or mentalities in every pool. How can we be sure that there are less snots or other personalities that turn you off in non-ivy private colleges? And, remember those schools do cost as much money if not more than the ivies. </p>
<p>And please, bigger picture. The ones who are “for the ivies” clearly state that it’s their personal preference (and they are defending their “rights” to like the ivies) but the ones who are “against the ives” are trying to make a case that ivies are bad. Where do you expect this is going? That everyone reaches a consensue that ivies are bad?</p>
<p>No one here is “against” Ivies. We’re concerned about parents - armed with only a modicum of research - painting them as Mecca, limiting viable options and stressing out their kids in the process.</p>
<p>For those of us who have actually “lived” through it or graduated from them we’re saying </p>
<ol>
<li>get some perspective</li>
<li>be careful what you wish for</li>
<li>That pot of gold you’re chasing might be iron pyrite</li>
</ol>
<p>I have yet to meet an alum of DH’s alma mater who didn’t love the school, their experience. So I guess the perspective that I’ve been exposed to is that School X is a great school. These alums hope that their child can go should they want to (most do). I would much rather pay the $$$ for an IVY (with its stellar credentials) or barring that a great LAC than I would the unis/private universities in the lower tiers. They are just as expensive and do not provide the same credentials.</p>
<p>I find this thread perplexing, Exie you sought admission to your alma mater Exeter for your daughter, she found her bliss elsewhere (you must admit at another fine institution that will provide her with a lot of oomph in whatever college shes seeks to apply to). </p>
<p>I think this is what most (that I know) legacy parents do—there is a lot of disappointment when it doesn’t always work out.</p>
<p>Probably true @flowers - we need to know our kids before we set them free. It was clear she was ready by her independent efforts to explore her options then call the schools on her own to set up interviews. And as parents, we all want our children exposed to the best they can get. </p>
<p>What D wanted, more than the academics, was a school of peers in terms of goals and mindset. That’s what she found. A place where she could be smart, and outspoken and exploratory and it was celebrated instead of mocked or squashed like she was in her urban school - or that her sister found at the local elite (and expensive) private school.</p>
<p>She wears a shirt that says “I won’t lower my standards in order to raise yours.”</p>
<p>Really - reaching for the “stars” is fine. I expect no less from the parents and students here. Just that - in the end - the final choice has to be the student’s without undue pressure or influence since they have to live or die by those consequences.</p>
<p>Not saying, or at least I don’t think I"m saying, that the Ivies are bad - just saying that they aren’t the only game in town. The majority of people who go to them are good people - but they aren’t the only good people. And the idea that people who go to Ivies are better than people who don’t - well, no, can’t agree with that one. </p>
<p>Maybe we don’t mean that - every one is equal, etc etc. But if we don’t mean it, why do we care so much. </p>
<p>If my kids want to go to an Ivy, and can navigate the lottery - all good. But if they decide that there is some reason that a different place will work better for them, that’s good too. Either choice will work for them, if they put themselves into it, and 20-30 years down the road, no one seems to care that much where you went - more interested in what you are doing now. </p>
<p>I just want the kids to give it their all, regardless of which college they end up in. If I tell them that they are working toward the Ivies, and then they don’t get in - what then? Did I lie to them? Did I just cause their 3-4 years of hard work in high school to become worthless? Would hate for that to happen, and would hate to see the effect on their trust in my judgment. Thus, I am going to leave the “ivy or no ivy” question up to the kids, and just ask them for hard work and honest decisions.</p>
<p>I do worry about how C may feel if C doesn’t get accepted at DH’s school. Kids in his school began to talk about college in 3rd and 4th grade. That is when he began asking about our undergrad. experience. DH as I said earlier loved his experience and talked about it with child. This was before we realized how admissions had become so uber-competitive. If we could do it over with the knowledge we have now, we would have done “damage control” from the get go. However, we just did not have the knowledge that we now have (with plenty more to learn). After the battering we got in this year’s prep. school lottery I have begun to fear that DC could very well not make 3rd, 4th 5th, 8th choice…</p>
<p>Someone we know tangentially has a C going to Tufts. I know this sounds crazy but this kid seemed like such a stellar kid, athlete…Tufts just doesn’t seem all that to me. I would have thought this kid was a shoe-in for a much “better” (please don’t slam me ) school. When DH’s cousin went to Tufts we were somewhat dismissive, this was almost 10 years ago. Kid had gone to a private school, parent to Ivy…This is not meant at all to be dismissive of Tufts which I’m sure is a very fine school, this is just from an outsider looking in with limited knowledge. I would guess though that the DH’s cousin and his C hoped for admit to his legacy IVY. This was our first hint that perhaps the game had changed from way back when DH and I went to school.</p>
<p>Again desire for C to have same benefits we had is not similar to snotty person mentioned earlier in this thread who thinks that if you don’t get into an Ivy you just didn’t cut it…</p>
<p>@flowers, the best you can do is love C and hope for the best. Be strategic, figure out if you have any leverage (if that’s what C dreams of) and mediate expectation.</p>
<p>When I was at Exeter it was probably true that BS gave students an edge - and in a way - it certainly leaves them better prepared for the transition. That was back when there was only morse code, smoke messages and pony express.</p>
<p>But holy smokes - the internet, texting, social media, etc. has leveled the playing field and pushed a lot of people to consider schools they wouldn’t have dreamed of years ago - including colleges. And the more the media talks about how hard it is to get in (Harvard for instance) then reveals details about the new “no-cost” tuition plan for lower middle class families - the more people want them - squeezing out the traditional applicant pool. It is cheaper for many local families to go to Harvard than to go to local or state schools at that income level. </p>
<p>Even boards like this may be making things worse since there are thousands of people who lurk but don’t post, then take the information and use it to strengthen their applications. Kind of makes me wish we’d taken this year’s crop underground for those “strategy” discussions based on how harsh the waitlist situation has become.</p>
<p>The turning point for us was looking at lots of schools and finding out there were options that were wonderful - in fact so wonderful - D kind of got the “been there did that” feeling once she rotated back for her obligatory interview at my school. Nothing new to discover after summer school.</p>
<p>So pray and realize that while a lot of students don’t get in - others do. He’s still got a chance at DH’s school. Hope springs eternal.</p>
<p>FYI Flowers, Tufts has a very strong academic and public service reputation, students love it. My favorite little Tufts fact for Glee fans: their a cappella group the Beelzebubs does the backup singing for Dalton Academy.</p>
<p>ssacd, I agree with you. It’d be insane to consider and communicate the idea to your kids that anything less than an ivy admission is a failure. Ivies and other highly selective colleges are fine institutions many people want to be part of, but they are by no means be all end all. Furthermore, many people would choose the roads less travled or find the best fit in a “hidden gem”, which is great. Pretty much the same perspective can be applied to BS admission process. And we can find plenty examples of every scenario.</p>
<p>dandrew - agreed - the kids are somewhat “on the loose” by now, and we just hope we’ve given them the right values to steer by. I think all will be well - they are at least as likely as we were to seek adventure, and grow by taking the “road less traveled” if that’s what they want to do.</p>
<p>Flowers123, it seems to me that many of the posters on this site who are urging others to look beyond the Ivy League (+MIT, Stanford, etc.) are themselves Ivy+ alumni. I heard on NPR the other day that the highest concentrations of Ivy League alumni (could’ve been HYP) are found 1) in the suburbs west of Cambridge, 2) in the area around Princeton, NJ, and 3) near D.C. As the elite colleges strive for geographic and socioeconomic diversity, there are many disappointed alumni each year. </p>
<p>It sounds as if you live in one of the 3 areas with concentrations of Ivy+ alumni families. The competition in those areas is intense. </p>
<p>The studies which claim an advantage for legacy applicants don’t take into account the degree of family self-selection. If a student doesn’t break 640 on the SAT math or verbal reasoning tests, I think many alumni parents guide their children to apply to other colleges. If you look at this list of average scores for the Ivy League, you can see why: [Average</a> SAT Scores for Ivy League Schools - Ivy League Schools Average SAT Scores](<a href=“http://testprep.about.com/od/sat/a/Average_SAT_IvyLeagues.htm]Average”>Ivy League SAT Score Comparison for Admission).</p>
<p>Thanks for your post, I always find so much info. in them with great links (are you a researcher ). I did wonder if perhaps SATs are a factor but after being on CC where all the prep kids seem to easily pull a high 90ies score I have begun to think that nearly everyone can get that too. Knowing these kids’ parents somewhat I would think they had the grades and scores (if parents got into Ivies, they had the scores and the grades, right) and it does seem to pass down that way. If SSAT is predictive of SAT scores C should do alright (however, we will do test prep if he applies again to make his score higher, I’m assuming it can be done).</p>
<p>I just have been thinking if parents had high scores and grades kids would too. Also, test prep was not common when we were young so I tend to think the parents who went to Ivies had higher scores because we were “unprepped”. </p>
<p>So I think the concern of the Tiger Moms is that scores & grades just don’t “cut” it anymore. You need more and at any particular admissions cycle no one knows what the tip will be. It’s hard to think about your passions if this is the case and wonder if it is worth it! If this is what people are saying when they say the golden ore may be pyrite then I guess that resonates with me a bit. However, if you aren’t at the level to get into an Ivy you very well might miss the boat with a great LAC which would be a greater “fit”…because the elite LACs are nearly as hard to get into as the Ivies</p>
Like how many? Note that we can’t take what’s disclosed or not disclosed on an internet board too seriously. Some or many posters simply said very little about their background. In addition, posters on this board are far from being representative of the whole population.</p>
<p>" I did wonder if perhaps SATs are a factor but after being on CC where all the prep kids seem to easily pull a high 90ies score I have begun to think that nearly everyone can get that too."</p>
<p>The posters on CC are an unusual lot, or they exaggerate. On the other hand, when hundreds of thousands of students take an exam, many students can be in the top %s. </p>
<p>This is a very nerdy post, but my point is this: even if you limit eligibility to the “top 5% of scorers,” more students score well than the Ivy League can admit. If your child wins admission to an Ivy League school, that’s great–but I’ve seen really smart, impressive kids from our town not win admission.</p>
<p>Two things I’ve learned from off-line discussions with parents and with students who’ve come “clean”:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>there is a good representation of BS and IVY/MIT parents on the boards.</p></li>
<li><p>there is a lot of exaggeration about “scores” and EC’s among students.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>As far as using the latter to judge one’s own (or ones child’s) success - Caveat reader…:)</p>
<p>Well…actually…for what ExieMITAlum is saying, yes they are. There are several people from these message boards that I communicate with “offline” and I’ve interacted with them on Facebook and visited their business web sites and I think that there is a high degree of reliability in terms of the biographical information that they share.</p>
<p>But in terms of the reliability of advice, I dislike using private channels. I routinely encourage people who communicate with me via PM to ask the question on the public message board because there’s accountability and the opinions can be vetted by the group. One-on-one communication is very unreliable in terms of the advice and opinions that are offered.</p>
<p>If, however, I had to rely on the people I’ve come to know “offline” and the ones who come here with a post count of 12 or 58 or even 592, the “offline” group is, hands down, more reliable in terms of their self-reported information.</p>
<p>I’m not sure if this point, or the one I’m responding to advances the conversation. I know it doesn’t detract from the conversation because at this stage all that is happening is that people are agreeing with posts that validate their views and disagreeing with posts that counter their views…to the point where even eminently sensible comments are being shot down as if there’s a scorekeeper tracking such things. Nobody here seems interested in understanding as much as they’re craving validation. Ugh.</p>
<p>@D’yer: I am not questioning whether people on this board have different opinions on or offline (in this context, of “for” or “against” ivies+), but the bottom line on an anonymous board is that posters can feel free to use real life examples, but their self-reported identification or no identification self-reporting, and whether or what actual names to attach to those examples shouldn’t be taken seriously. Trying to add weight to your argument by repeating that you have “lived through” and are still an insider is fruitless in convinicing others having different opinions.</p>
<p>I said in the ealier post: 1) There are Not “many” ivy+ alums on this board who hold a certain view (and even there are, ivy+ alum is only one part of someone’s identification, and why they hold that view could have significant or insignicant relationship with that part of identification); 2) The posters here are not a good representation of the population. I stand by those statements. </p>
<p>I do agree with you on “craving validation”. And in a “offline discussion”, I mentioned that it seems to me very few on this board, other than for “purely technical issues”, are open to learning or changing but rather just looking for confirmations of their own ideas/approaches. It is sad.</p>
<p>Well, going through the process this year, I found CC an invaluable aid. I don’t know that it radically changed the way we did things, but it reminded me in particular that the “black box of admissions” we talk about goes on and becomes the “black box of the class of 2015.” You just can’t know your kid’s classmates and their families prior to enrollment, so you’re trusting the school that you see makes its assessments most clearly in line with what you value–if possible. In the end, revisits were HUGE for us, although tempered by all visits to the particular campuses. DC was pretty certain about what the right fit was, and we saw no reason to disagree.</p>
) school. When DH’s cousin went to Tufts we were somewhat dismissive, this was almost 10 years ago. Kid had gone to a private school, parent to Ivy…This is not meant at all to be dismissive of Tufts which I’m sure is a very fine school, this is just from an outsider looking in with limited knowledge. I would guess though that the DH’s cousin and his C hoped for admit to his legacy IVY. This was our first hint that perhaps the game had changed from way back when DH and I went to school.</p>