I responded to the “ballpark” point on January 23. The basic thrust of my response was that particular liberal arts colleges actually admit and attract a wide range of students, measured by test scores and grades, so the borders of “ballparks” are rather amorphous. In addition, the admissions process can be unpredictable, especially when it comes to applications to the most selective colleges.
Over the past couple of years, I’ve noticed that most of the high school seniors I meet, and their parents, tend to rank their college “preferences” based on similar notions of “ballparks.” For example, hardly anyone turns down Princeton for Penn, since Princeton apparently is more selective and is in a different “ballpark.” Hardly anyone turns down any Ivy League college for Michigan or Wisconsin, since all of the Ivy League colleges are more selective than all of the Big Ten colleges and are in a different “ballpark.” Hardly anyone turns down Swarthmore or Amherst for Oberlin or Macalester, since Swarthmore and Amherst are more selective and in a different “ballpark.”
And those who choose Wesleyan or Vassar are often desperate to convince everyone else that they’re in the same “ballpark” as Swarthmore or Amherst. (Maybe they are! I don’t really know how the scores compare.)
Whatever. If it were my choice, I’d pick Penn over Princeton. I’d pick Michigan or Wisconsin over much of the Ivy League. And I’d pick Oberlin or Macalester over Swarthmore or Amherst. I might well pick UPS or Beloit over them, too.
When I discuss my views on this subject with parents in our community, they often react as if I were positively deranged. Some become angry. Some look at me with pity. Once in a while, though, I get enthusiastic nods of agreement.
On an unrelated note, I heard that students who want to apply to liberal arts colleges in cities also should look at Union College in Schenectady, New York, which is just West of Albany. Schenectady is a smallish industrial city. But it has a few nice walkable neighborhoods, there’s plenty do in the capital region, plenty of rural attractions are a short drive away, and Union supposedly has a welcoming, nurturing and intellectual culture.
It might make sense to visit some combination of Vassar, Bard, Skidmore, Union and Hamilton. RPI is nearby too.
@WildRumpuser, thank you for the detailed review of UPS! My daughter and I visited there this summer (from Chicago) and I LOVED it. She liked it as well, but felt it was too small for her. She applied and I’m continuing to keep it on her radar. I think it would be a GREAT fit for her. She likes the outdoorsy-ness of the PNW, but also the urban feel. We’ll see what happens, but I appreciate the time you put into this!
Is “Sasha” going to UPS now? How does he/she feel about it so far?
Sasha is a first year student at UPS and has no regrets so far. The academics have been challenging and stimulating. Sasha has lots of homework but doesn’t complain about the workload. The
professors have been friendly and accessible.
Sasha likes the students very much. As we hoped, the student body is generally engaged but not overtly competitive. I’ve been amazed by the diversity among Sasha’s friends. Male, female, athletic, not athletic, American, foreign, gay, straight, music focused, football focused, swimming focused, basketball focused, theater focused, African American, Asian, Latino, Caucasian, etc. Because UPS is a D3 school, many athletes have enough time to also participate in the arts.
Sasha did not see much support for Trump on campus. In that respect, UPS is not very diverse.
The main complaint I’ve heard is that some weekends have been a little dull. College parties are a lot less fun once you actually have regular opportunities to attend them. There aren’t as many weekend events on campus as we anticipated, at least on some weekends. This seems to be an issue at many small liberal arts colleges, but Sasha thinks the tradeoff is worthwhile. Sasha really appreciates the sense of community that you feel everywhere you go at UPS.
Sasha likes Tacoma very much but spends less time off campus than we both expected. Sasha seems to average about one trip to Seattle per month (most often to hear a live band) and one or two trips to some kind of park per month. But Sasha knows students who spend every single weekend outdoors.
@MiddleburyDad2, I suspect the lack of use of pronouns was deliberate, Sasha can be a gender neutral name. The reason for that choice isn’t our business.
@gmfl71 , of course it was deliberate. And, I didn’t say or suggest it was our business. I don’t give a rat’s behind whether Sasha is a man or a woman, or something in between. I just shared my opinion that the constant use of “Sasha” w/o pronouns, in the context of very long posts in which this person is constantly being referenced, is awkward. And I’m confident that there’s not an English professor in the country who would not agree.
That said, it wasn’t my main point in response; and it wasn’t a big deal in July, and isn’t a big deal in January. But thanks anyway.
“And those who choose Wesleyan or Vassar are often desperate to convince everyone else that they’re in the same “ballpark” as Swarthmore or Amherst. (Maybe they are! I don’t really know how the scores compare.)”
Eh, I don’t think so. You clearly didn’t spend a lot of time at Wes or Vassar. One of the many traits those two schools share in common are their somewhat irreverent student bodies that don’t tend to obsess over prestige and perceptions. This isn’t the future Wall Street crowd.
“The main complaint I’ve heard is that some weekends have been a little dull. College parties are a lot less fun once you actually have regular opportunities to attend them. There aren’t as many weekend events on campus as we anticipated, at least on some weekends. This seems to be an issue at many small liberal arts colleges, but Sasha thinks the tradeoff is worthwhile. Sasha really appreciates the sense of community that you feel everywhere you go at UPS.”
Is Sasha in a fraternity or sorority? My understanding is that something on the order of 80% of the campus is Greek. Though UPS is in a lovely neighborhood, there’s not much to do in the immediately surrounding environment, so if my % is correct and Sasha is not in the Greek system, I can see how weekends might be a little dull.
All that said, UPS is a great and certainly lovely school. I’m glad it’s working out.
The % of greek we were quoted while on tour was not anywhere near 80%. I can’t recall what it was (think it was around half?) but that likely might have killed if for my S if it really were 80%.
Though both our tour guides certainly were Greek.
They don’t recruit until spring so Sasha would not be part of Greek life as a freshman.
@MiddleburyDad2 true. We were surprised to be honest. I think it’s 20% of the guys and 29% of the girls are greek if memory serves. That said, very much a private school, school oversight, school owned houses etc type of greek. We were pretty shocked on our tour when one of the guides said he specifically chose greek life as a gpa booster! LOL
I don’t get the “infomercial” wisecrack, CircuitRider.
But if it’s directed at me, I’d admit to encouraging more people to apply to UPS (and Wesleyan). I’ve spent some time at both and both seem to have nice communities, great music, varied course offerings, and involved faculty, as well as large populations of politically active students, artistic students, athletic students, and students who are focused on future careers in business. Of course, as many people have observed, Wesleyan rejects most applicants who apply with stats that would be fairly typical at UPS.
I forgot to mention that the Greek presence on UPS’s campus is noticeable but far from dominant. Sasha doesn’t plan to join the Greek system. But from what I could see during parents weekend , the Greek system there is pretty mild and also pretty welcoming.
Parent of a non Greek UPS student here It does not dominate campus life and kid is happy not participating in it. I think percentage wise, it is 25-30% of student body who join a fraternity/sorority. Between Seattle for big city adventures and the mountains/Puget Sound for hikes and outdoor adventures there is much to do.
Yes I’ve heard that the Greek community at Puget Sound is not of the exclusive variety nor a bastion of bad behavior. I think the fact that the school owns the houses has something to do with that.
Well all the same I hope Sasha finds her group and is able to stay busy on weekends. Are you going to give him/her a car while there?
Fwiw I don’t get the infomercial comment either. May have been directed at me.
@WildRumpuser Thank you for taking the time to write your original posts, and for continuing to reply to this thread. My D also wanted an urban setting in the West or Midwest, so she applied to Willamette, Lewis and Clark, Macalester, and U of San Francisco. She has been admitted to Willamette and we are waiting to hear from the rest. We are from a small town in WI, so we know lots of people who went to Lawrence or Beloit, but my D refused to look at either of them on the grounds that the towns they are in are too small. I learned about CTCL years ago from a friend whose D went to Earlham, but I couldn’t interest my D in CTCL schools (besides Willamette) because most of them, at least in the West and Midwest, are in small towns.