“Maybe for you, but I was very specifically noting the challenges of sport competition. Some kids find it relatively easy to rise to the top academically, consequently, they don’t have the opportunity to wrestle with the finer points of effort and excellence. Sport is just another endeavor in which to find those challenges.
As is music and, yes, the performing arts.”
I don’t necessarily think it’s important to find other areas to “challenge” yourself in. If you’re a good student - even if it’s relatively easy for you - and you want to play a sport, music, perform in theater, etc. for no other reason other than it’s fun and social (and in the case of sports, healthy for you), I don’t see a need to heap another reason on top of that. Sometimes “it’s fun and I like it” is all the reason you need to do something.
I don’t think of music as something that’s so special that it needs to be crammed down the throat of kids who are not musically inclined. I’m ok with - expose your kid to an instrument, if he likes it, hey great, if not, let it go. That’s not to say that I don’t find value in music - I do - but I don’t think it’s a box that has to be checked off for life.
If your D is aiming for schools like Stanford, yes, there are things she should do.
It seems as if math is her strong point. If her school offers the AMC, she should take it. Practice a bit --it helps if she does well enough to qualify for the AIME. If her school doesn’t offer it, try the USAMTS. http://www.usamts.org/ If her school has a math team, have her join it. If it’s possible to participate in ARML, do so. If she takes calculus by junior year, she should take the AP test.
She should also consider doing an Intel project. She needs to start planning her project NOW. I am not saying that everyone who has gotten into Stanford has done one; that’s not the case. But, if your D is interested in neuroscience, doing some research in that field will help. Of course, making semi-finalist status will help even more.
Take the qualifying test for the chemistry Olympiad if she’s good at chemistry.
Perspective of the adult is pretty irrelevant here. If a kid does not want to have staright As, she will not and by the same token, if a kid does not care to participate in ECs, she will not, and again, if another absolutely wants to be everywhere and excell at everything, then parent could say, No, I will not drive you there, I will not pay for it, but this is the only control parent has and nothing else. Cannot make them do it, period. So our opinions in regard to how wonderful it is or how stupid we are to expect it from the child are pretty irrelevant. We have no control aside from providing support or not, we cannot push them into something, while we can prevent them from something. And if some of them are stupid to pile up meanningless clubs in their application, what can you do? Nothing…
Absolutely, students should apply to Stanford if they are interested in going there. I would not try to discourage that! However, in our area, I have observed that Harvard, Yale, and Princeton are all a bit more predictable in terms of their admissions. (Results in your area may vary.) For a student who is very well qualified academically to focus on Stanford, without having some “knock your socks off” additional qualification, is a mistake in my opinion. A student like that should apply to other top schools, too. Stanford + match schools + safety schools is likely to yield a match school for such a student.
Back to not totally agreeing with PG: With regard to physical activity, the team and competitive aspects of sports are valued by some in admissions. I’ve heard it argued that making a mistake during a game and then recovering quickly teaches resilience, and losing some games teaches come-back skills as well. Athletes in team sports learn about the importance of shared responsibility and shared efforts to win games. In terms of personal fitness, any activity works; but they may not all be equally valued by admissions.
I have worked in selective college admissions for years and in a nutshell:
There is not magic formula for admittance. A 36 ACT or 2400 SAT, 4.0 GPA does not guarantee an admit. This is not earth shattering news.
HS rigor and academic transcript are more important than test scores (really).
ECs: depth matters more than breadth. 10 ECs vs 3 ECs? It matters not. Show a passion for what you like to do and do it. Don't worry about the number.
And we know when an application has been padded. Don't add stuff just to add it. Just be true to yourself and the opportunity/outcome for you will be much more positive.
No one has ever gotten into Stanford from our high school who wasn’t a recruited athlete, so though my son applied he didn’t hold out much hope of getting in, and he didn’t. (He got into Harvard, but went to Carnegie Mellon by the way.)
I wanted to say a word about leadership - it’s not about being the president of a club or starting a new club that there’s no real need for. The true leaders see problems and solve them recruiting other people as needed. For example there was a poster here whose daughter volunteered at the local hospital. It’s not a position of big responsibility, but the more time she spent in the hospital the more she realized that many recent immigrants were having trouble communicating with the doctors. She came up with a system that provided translations of the most frequent questions and answers that would make up for the lack of interpreters.
If they apply to wide range, then they will get somewhere. It is not that imporatn where, as long as they picked the list based on their positive perception of it. The rest will be up to a student, the success will depend on the kid, not the place. Every single place, including all Ivy / Elite, may be a wonderful opportunity or a complete disaster…and all in between.
I joined CC when my D was at the end of her sophomore year. A poster here recommended that we purchased the book "How to Be a High School Superstar: A Revolutionary Plan to Get into College by Standing Out (Without Burning Out) ’ - i ordered it and it changed everything. She dropped out of about half of what she was doing and began to truly enjoy her day to day school life…
you really only have the read the 1st two chapters…it kind of repeats itself over and over…but it gave both she and me incredible clarity.
now she’s a senior…and with stats not as good as your daughters…and she’s 3 for 4 on her college apps so far…with optimism on the schools left…
"Back to not totally agreeing with PG: With regard to physical activity, the team and competitive aspects of sports are valued by some in admissions. I’ve heard it argued that making a mistake during a game and then recovering quickly teaches resilience, and losing some games teaches come-back skills as well. "
Actually we agree more than you think, QM. (Again, look at those icicles!) I agree that the team and competitive aspects of sports are valued by some in admissions, and I agree they can provide valuable life lessons. However, I don’t believe in doing everything in life simply according-to-what-college-admissions-values, and for my own personal philosophy, I believe that the benefits of physical activity are the important thing, and however someone prefers to get them is what’s most important, whether that is personal activity (bike riding, jogging, weightlifting, aerobics) or whether it happens to be on a team and / or competitive in nature.
Put another way, I would want my kid to get some kind of physical activity, but I would not “make” my kid join a team or do that activity competitively unless they had that interest. I just don’t think it’s all that more important in life to be (say) a competitive tennis player than a recreational tennis player, or a competitive swimmer versus a casual swimmer. I recognize other families have different philosophies and to each her own, that’s mine.
@Pizzagirl and @QuantMech Could I ask your opinions on my own D? She is a senior, has applied to numerous LACs and has been admitted to 4 so far with good merit aid. At the beginning of this school year she had a bit of a dilemma. The first 3 years she played a fall sport on a JV team, and really enjoyed the camaraderie. This year she took a really tough academic schedule, with bunches of APs, etc. She wasn’t quite good enough to make the varsity team in her sport (actually would have been the next person up). So she had to choose between remaining JV on a sport that she enjoys (she actually does a second sport out of school, which is her true passion), or using that practice and competition time to put extra effort in on her studies.
Many of her friends told her she wouldn’t actually get “credit” for the JV sport on her apps. Still, she decided to do it anyway, even though there were many late nights studying in Sept & Oct. She probably paid a bit of a price in terms of a few hundreths of a point shaved off her GPA fall semester. And I don’t have any idea what the adcoms might have thought of this, although her application results have been very good so far. Just wondering what your take is on it.
Stanford is one college. It’s a great school…but you don’t have to go to Stanford to have a successful career and a rewarding life.
There are tons of colleges where this student would likely thrive.
Doing activities simply for the sake of fulling blank for summer program and college applications is nonsense. The student should do activities because they are of interest to her.
Really…she is fine. And where exactly is she hearing stories about ALL of these kids with 2400 perfect SAT scores who have founded their own companies, etc. That is certainly not the norm. And even at Stanford, you will find many students who don’t have perfect 2400 SAT scores…and who have founded companies. It’s absurd to think that all applicant to competitive schools do these things.
Here is my opinion. Your daughter wanted to do this JV sport. Her admissions results to colleges so far have been fine. Can’t imagine the adcoms are dissing continued participation in a sport…just because it’s on the JV level.
Good for your daughter for doing something she wanted to do!
MidwestDad3, I strongly believe in doing things for which one gets no “credit,” if they are enjoyable and/or helpful to others. It is good to hear that your daughter has had excellent results in admissions, while continuing to play on the JV team!
In the abstract, her friends are probably right that a student does not get as much admissions “credit” from being on a JV team, as opposed to the varsity team. However, in your daughter’s case, having the second sport outside of school makes a difference, and more than compensates for being on the JV team at school (in my opinion).
If she continued to enjoy the camaraderie of the JV team, I think it was the right choice. I have not been able to monetize my high school GPA–let alone a few hundredths of a point of it.
Thanks @Thumper1 and @QuantMech I was kind of against it at the time, but left the decision entirely up to her. I couldn’t really see it then, but I think she did the right thing.
I disagree. Short of being a recruitable athlete, it’s the participation that’s valuable.
In fact, I’d have to say that JV athletes are even more impressive for perseverance alone. They’re not getting the letter or the accolades of the other athletes and they still keep it up.
Not only do I agree with #69, but my kids learned “that making a mistake during a game and then recovering quickly teaches resilience, and losing some games teaches come-back skills as well.” from playing competitive chess. My kids learned to play soccer and tennis and how to swim. But in high school they didn’t do team sports - they are of normal weight and healthy. The oldest has an exercise bike and walks a lot since he doesn’t drive. Youngest goes to a gym and in the past has taken Krav Maga classes regularly. If a kid is happy on the less stressful JV team - I think that’s just dandy.
I can't emphasize enough that it is not realistic to target any individual top 20 school specifically, let alone Stanford. If she is able to perform at that level, you need to work with her to identify a small group of schools that have programs that she would be interested in and where she would be happy.
Focus on raising her class standing. If you are trying to get accepted to a top 20 school, she need to be taking all Honors or AP courses if she can handle that and still get A's. This can be made a little easier by adding a study hall and a PE class, but it will still be hard.
Take the SAT soon, and get it out of the way. If she has a 225 PSAT, then she should be able to score better than she did on the SAT. The difference may be caused by losing focus on the longer test. Have her practice taking a few full length practice exams in a timed setting to prepare her. Notice whether she is scoring lower on the later sections. That may indicate a loss of focus late in the test.
Top schools do not care so much about lots of ECs and volunteer work. They are more interested in students that have demonstrated the ability to do something at a high level or have a demonstrated interest in a particular major. If she does not have an outstanding talent, she should be getting involved in activities that relate to her interests. If she is interested in Engineering, for example, she should consider the robotics club, or science fairs, or computer programming opportunities. While many students will be accepted to top schools without an identified interest area, her chances are better if she has one.
Be sure to identify some safety schools where she would be happy. You also need to consider schools outside the top 20 schools and find some that have programs and environments where she would also be happy. Consider the top state universities such as Cal, UCLA, UVA, Michigan, USC, North Carolina, Wisconsin, Illinois etc.