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<p>Friends of ours are going through this; it’s horrific. No only did they lose their beloved son, they are now paying off approx 100K with no recourse. I beg parents to take the very difficult step of getting life insurance on their student if they are going to co-sign for loans.</p>
<p>Sorry to go off-topic, it’s just so important and, understandably, rarely talked about.</p>
<p>We raised our 2 kids to aim high. They spent their high school achieving the best grades they could get. And when the time to choose a College came, both chose private colleges - D1 chose a highly ranked LAC (Pomona) and D2 chose an Ivy (Columbia) her dream school. D2 that chose to go Ivy had 11 other college admissions, with Columbia at a higher cost than almost all the other options she had (except Pomona). So why are we sending D2 to a higher cost Ivy instead of choosing a lower-cost, but highly-ranked LAC or state school such as UC Berkeley?</p>
<p>It is best captured in words by my wife - “I’d hate to say to my D that she cannot go to her dream school just bcos we cannot afford it. If she did all we asked of her in HS to the degree of getting accepted into her dream Ivy, why would we dash such hopes on the premise of $$$? What is the value of one’s happiness??”</p>
<p>I guess we all have to weigh our priorities in life!</p>
<p>With this family, I’m also wondering how this will work with the next three children. Are the parents prepared to say, “We maxed out our ability to take on debt so that your brother could go to an Ivy League school. Sorry, you’re on your own.” That sounds like a terrible thing to do to sibling relations.</p>
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<p>I also raised my son to aim high. In addition, I raised him to understand money and that debt is being beholden to someone else. I want my son to be free, in all ways, so that he can make choices down the line, not just a choice now.</p>
<p>I’m sorry, I just do not understand the idea that “because we cannot afford” is not good enough. It’s reality. Nor do I understand the idea that happiness is tied to money or what one can afford. Beyond the basics of food, shelter and a bit extra, all the research shows that money and name brands are not tied to happiness at all.</p>
<p>pugmadkate,</p>
<p>I have to say that reading your post made me feel quite uncomfortable. I perceive the beauty of CC to be in the respectful manner in which individuals communicate (at least for the most part), while sharing info and offering advice. Your comment pertaining to us “sacrificing” one/some of our children to allow another to attend an Ivy school is, to say the least, offensive (not to mention your comment pertaining to the relationship between our children, which, we btw. cherish and work very hard to develop and maintain).</p>
<p>To respond to your “accusations”, we’ve been saving for college for many years, and each child has a college savings account on his/her name. Our son is fully aware of the amount that we can guarantee at this point, as well as that we will do our best to assist even more. There’s no way on earth that we will max out on loans to support one child, while sacrificing the others. My hubby is a business man and is doing the math very accurately to make sure this never happens (btw, our son would never allow this to happen, as his loyalty to his sibs far exceeds his wish to avoid a larger loan).</p>
<p>It seems that if a family’s income is too high to qualify for aid (assume 200K+?)–even with no savings, they should be able to pay a decent part of college expenses from current income. They may have to make some “lifestyle adjustments,” but it doesn’t look like they’d need to take on THAT much ($250K) debt.</p>
<p>We are one of those families that did “too much” for our first two kids. We had to re-think what we can pay for our younger ones. My kids don’t count dollars. They will all go to college, and we plan to pay for 90% of it. They may have a narrow choice of colleges, but they will understand that is what we can do at the moment. I doubt there will be any hard feelings among my kids. They realize that college is a privilege and having your parents pay for most of it is an advantage that a lot of kids don’t have.</p>
<p>oclement,</p>
<p>Thanks for your post. I must admit that I feel the same way; it is very hard for me as well as for my husband to tell our son to settle for less after he worked so hard for so may years to get to this place. While we can assist him with tuition, we are unable to cover 100% of his education (Ivy or any non-merit private school). This means loans for us, and for him. That said, we do believe (and hope) in his ability to pay them back at some point as he’s looking to graduate with a very marketable major that could lead to a well paying job. It is possible that our perspective would have been different say he was looking to major in a non-marketable major.</p>
<p>More so, we trust him to maintain the disciplined and ambitious path that really got him this far. I’d probably be reluctant to undertake such financial burden expecting him to do “okay” and simply follow the brand rather than what it has to offer (in terms of education, networking, internships, career, etc.).</p>
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<p>Just an FYI…DD graduated with a double major in engineering/biology. Women engineers are very much in demand. HOWEVER she now says that she really doesn’t ever plan to be an engineer. SO her ability to have a lucrative job…or the higher likelihood of it…isn’t really there. Just saying…even IF your student majors in a field with highly lucrative jobs…some DO change their minds. Ours will be heading to grad school after her two year stint in the Peace Corps…in some field other than engineering…and on HER own dime.</p>
<p>pugmadkate,</p>
<p>You’re stating that,</p>
<p>“I’m sorry, I just do not understand the idea that “because we cannot afford” is not good enough. It’s reality. Nor do I understand the idea that happiness is tied to money or what one can afford. Beyond the basics of food, shelter and a bit extra, all the research shows that money and name brands are not tied to happiness at all.”</p>
<p>I cannot agree with you more. In fact, studies show that while earnings increased in the past 50 years or so, happiness levels stayed pretty much the same. That said, the question here is not about the correlation between money and happiness, but the correlation between one’s college preferences and his/her happiness. In this case I’d say: know thy son/daughter.</p>
<p>We know our son well enough to get a clear sense of the college atmosphere that will make his happy. It has nothing to do with an X college being better/worse, but with who he is as an individual, his personality, his aspirations. While not a geek in any way, our son is far from being a part animal, and he will not fit in at a party college (his words exactly). He will also be miserable at a huge campus, but very happy at a medium-large campus with a student body that is more or less at his level. He’s a child that learns for the sake of learning - he simply loves learning. Money could be a bonus in this case, but not the main goal. </p>
<p>He also makes it very clear that he wishes to stay close to him - that’s his personal preference that no doubt limits the college choices, but makes us very happy (being that his our #1 child). Stretching the perimeter is an option, but I don’t believe it’s a good one as he will likely be less happy being far away from home which will no doubt also impact his motivation and performance. And the most important aspect - we want our son to be happy with his college decision. Studies clearly demonstrate that happiness strongly correlates with mental and physical health, with performance and motivation, and with long term success.</p>
<p>FalmaMom, have you tried any of the college search engines out there? In just a couple of minutes, I generated a list of excellent schools within driving distance of NJ that offer merit scholarships to outstanding students. These include American University, George Washington University, the University of Rochester (an outstanding school often overlooked on CC for some reason), Johns Hopkins, and Bucknell. (Parents, please correct me if I’ve misread - I tried to confirm merit aid on each school’s website but might have misinterpreted.) If you’re willing to increase the driving distance, there are more such schools. It’s very hard to qualify for the most generous scholarships from schools on this level, but a kid with a reasonable expectation of Ivy admits would be considered for them.</p>
<p>There are also excellent public schools, which are more expensive for OOS students but still less than the cost of a private school. Some of these schools provide merit scholarships, as well. I’m a big fan of the University of Pittsburgh, which has great opportunities for kids in their Honors College. If your son’s qualifications are very strong, he might qualify for the Chancellor’s Scholarship, which offers many benefits for mentoring, contacts, career placement, etc. </p>
<p>I agree with the poster who suggested casting a wide net, for financial and academic possibilities. Your son can get a great education without going into heavy undergrad debt. Good luck!</p>
<p>Boy, do I feel sorry for some of these kids. I really, really do. You know what? It’s college. It will be over in four short years. Maybe those four years will be super extra awesome if your fantastic hard-working, big-dreaming prodigy goes to an Ivy and hits the money jackpot with a Wall Street job. (Gotta love those investment bankers- they did so much for this country the past few years.) But what if he/she doesn’t hit the jackpot, and you are out $250,000 in loans? Some of the parents on this site have so much invested in their kids that their kids are too big to fail. So much time, so much money, all those music lessons and tutoring sessions and SAT prep programs and private schools- it’s like each kid is the Hope Diamond.
it’s truly ridiculous. It’s college. In the grand scheme of things, not very much of all of this matters two figs. if you want to spend a quarter of a million dollars on it, go right ahead. A fool is born every minute.</p>
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<p>Agree with POIH that some schools have a pretty sweet set up through their career center for business consulting/IB internships and positions. Other schools are not on the “circuit” that major IB firms frequent. It’s not that someone from, let’s say, UC San Diego can’t get an IB job in NYC. But they’ll have to go after it on their own without on campus recruiting. </p>
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<p>Good point by POIH. Weighing of options has to be different when you put debt into the picture. </p>
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<p>Once again, 3togo points out correctly that massive debt is too dangerous for kid and parents considering that other alternatives exist. If you can afford to send your kid to an Ivy without a lot of debt, then that is your choice as to how you spend your money. But if it requires massive debt–that’s not using your brain.</p>
<p>Just an aside–you don’t have to be making $200K+ to not qualify for any financial based aid at an Ivy. A lesser amount of income with a home and lots of college or other savings can pretty much make you a full pay candidate.</p>
<p>One other thing that I’ve seen affect college choice and might apply here–the number of kids you plan to put through college. We only had 2, 5 years apart, so we never had two college tuitions to pay in one year (I DON’T know how you guys do it!!). But if we had 4 or more kids, we would have restricted applications to our state schools (UCs) or other cheaper alternatives that would not have amounted to more than the cost of a state school.</p>
<p>@Falmamom: I hear you. All of us posting on this thread are just stating our preferences… some are more forceful than others. Go with your heart is what I’d say… I want my kids to have the very best the world can offer them… if it means some loans or debt, so be it. We should not be enslaved to the fear of debt, else we will never truly live. </p>
<p>In our D2’s case, it would cost us $30K / year to send her to UC Berkeley, UC Davis, or USC, $25K to Pomona, and $30K to Columbia (D2 received a named merit scholarship). Given all of these choices, our $30K is best spent at Columbia, especially since it is D2’s dream school. That, to us, is a no-brainer decision… </p>
<p>Falmamon, it really will NOT cost you $60K/yr for your son’s Ivy education, nor would you need to borrow $250K over 4 years as many have insinuated here. With being a NMF and with good grades/good test scores, your son will indeed receive merit scholarships that will defray his college CoA. In addition, there are lots of external merit scholarships he can/should apply for that will reduce the overall cost burden to you and the school of his choice.</p>
<p>Go with your heart… you will never regret it.</p>
<p>tptshorty,</p>
<p>I have to admit that I find your post to be distasteful on many counts. I’m more than open to different views, including ones that totally contradicts with mine on all fronts, as long as it is conveyed in a respectful manner.</p>
<p>So, in order to set the record straight (and hopefully free you from the need to feel so sorry for my son, really really so sorry), following are the facts:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>My “fantastic hard-working, big dreaming prodigy” is indeed hard-working (in fact, he stays up until 1 am most nights to work on his school work because HE is motivated to do well - we never pushed him, it wasn’t necessary since it was always his choice). And yes - he does have big dreams, which should be celebrated rather than ridiculed, especially when one works so hard for it rather than counting on luck or favors.</p></li>
<li><p>He may end up being accepted to an Ivy schools, and maybe not. Competition is very hard, but he will sure give it a try. </p></li>
<li><p>If he ends up at a “Wall Street job”, it will not be as a result of hitting the jackpot, as you put it, but it will be earned based on years of hard work, discipline, and ambition.</p></li>
<li><p>If he doesn’t “hit the jackpot” he will land at another job, possibly one that pays less, and it will take him longer to pay back his student loans. That said, we’re not talking about 250K - we are going to help him with tuition, which means that his loans (and ours, if needed) will be much smaller.</p></li>
<li><p>We do have so much invested in our son, but it has nothing to do with money but with love, and support. It has to do with raising children to value education in itself (not just its outcomes), to value success, the take responsibility to one’s actions, successes and failures. To take chances, and to always do ones best. </p></li>
<li><p>Our son does not take music lessons (he played the piano many years ago for a short while, didn’t like it, and quit), and he never in his life had a tutor work with him (in fact, he worked as a tutor, teaching middle school kids math). </p></li>
<li><p>Our son never attended an SAT prep class, but borrowed SAT prep books form the local library and worked very hard to improving the areas which he felt needed some extra work (and increased his SAT score by over 20%, which is a LOT considering the high score he had to begin with). The same goes for the SAT subject test (Math II) on which he got an almost perfect score. He’s also taking the SAT Physics subject test - no prep program - all “do it yourself” type of self-tutoring.</p></li>
<li><p>Our son does not attend a private high-school. He earned his place at a prestigious public magnet school that chooses the brightest children, which an acceptance rate very close to the most selective Ivy league schools. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>Be well.</p>
<p>“With being a NMF and with good grades/good test scores, your son will indeed receive merit scholarships that will defray his college CoA”
Be careful about promises that may not come true. Since Ivys don’t give out merit $$, NMF’s who matriculate at Ivys or at other colleges than DONT’ support/ subsidize NM can only receive up to $2500, but there is no guarantee of even that or of any other merit $$. The merit $$ is offered by non- Ivy colleges eager to attract the best students.</p>
<p>Given the acceptance rates at the ivies, and the numbers of really fantastic students who were more than qualified for the elite schools this year, who were waitlisted, I’d guess that “to Ivy or not to Ivy” will be answered for you by the schools’ admissions committees.</p>
<p>At that point, you will have to make some decisions, but probably NOT the ones you think you are grappling with right now. Additionally, all of the Ivies will be doing the SCEA option this year, except for the ones who will do ED, and that will take further spots out of the “to Ivy” option column. </p>
<p>Cast a wide net, in terms of selectivity and academic rigour, and hopefully you will have this “problem” to grapple with next year at this time.</p>
<p>Good luck to you.</p>
<p>FAlmamom, when you start the process with a list of schools, as long as you have some good , likely schools on that list, shoot for the stars. You care about your son, and I am sure that you will be encouraging him all through the process, and support what he wants, giving your advice from experience. He has great stats and seems to be poised for top school considerations. You and your husband are behind him financially. He’ll be fine. Just try to enjoy the process as well. Some of it can even be fun, though I wish there were a less stressfully way to do this.</p>
<p>Not an Ivy League Story- but MIT. I was the first in my Family to attend college- went to State Flagship, fell in love with it did not look anywhere else. Valedictorian, high SAT’s. My younger sister- Valedictorian, much smarter than I- read encyclopedias (World Book) for fun in the summer(really). Small Midwestern hometown- not much else to do. Our Mother was Valedictorian, one of six children, no money for college in the 50’s. Our Father won a basketball scholarship to Butler( 60+ years before the Glory) , one of seven kids, had to quit to help out on the Family farm.</p>
<p>Our Parents insisted that we go to College. We all made very good grades so I thought it was a given, I did appreciate at the time that we would be the first in our extended families to do so or that fewer than 20% of our High School’s Graduating Classes went to any type of college, let alone a 4 year college.</p>
<p>Fast Forward- I went to college, my brother went to college, my younger sister had a chance to go to MIT. She interviewed, got it, first one and only one since in our small town Indiana high school to do so. My parents had saved- Mother legal secretary for 15 years, then quit to stay home with us, Father worked at General Motors for 40+ years. General Motors stock( worth quite a bit more back then) put us all through college.</p>
<p>In 1982, when my Sister started MIT, tuition was beyond what my Parents had put back for three kids- who would have thought that the child of two small town Indiana high school sweethearts would go to MIT??? My Sister recognized the sacrifice, offered to go to Purdue instead. My Father would hear nothing of it - they would do whatever it took for MIT. Three weeks after dropping my Sister( the Baby) off in Boston, our Father died. Very close Family, horrible for all of us. My Sister thought of transferring home to Purdue, my 51 year old- newly widowed Mother would hear nothing of it- your Father (we)wanted you to go to MIT - our Dream too. </p>
<p>My Sister started her own Company in Silicon Valley 15 years ago, after graduating with honors from MIT. I am fairly confident that her life would have been different had she transferred to Purdue- an MIT Degree opens so many more doors.</p>
<p>My Sister’s path (as well as mine and my Brother’s- both Law School Graduates) required quite a bit of sacrifice on my Parents’ behalf( a number of our Aunts and Uncles thought their sacrifices were foolish- “why not have snowmobiles”). Needless to say, their sacrifices paid off 10 fold for all of us, we are paying it forward with our children as well as taking care of our Mother. Just wish that Dad was here to see what his hard work and sacrifice started. </p>
<p>If you can make your Chidren’s dreams come true, do so. You will never forget it and neither will they.</p>
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<p>The good news is that your son does not have to settle for less! That you’ve been sold the idea that the Ivy League and other “elites” are the very best for every student does not make it true. </p>
<p>My son did not get into the Ivy League schools he applied to, so he’s not having that experience but he is having a different experience. Not worse, not settling, but different. For example, his job this summer is going to be working with students who are coming from China to attend his college. What an amazing experience…and he’s getting paid to do it! If he’d gone somewhere else, I’m sure he’d be up to something else good but in no way do I feel that he’s settled. </p>
<p>We found the college application process a wonderful opportunity to review how brand-names are marketed, perception vs reality and the need to identify what is best for oneself, not what the crowd thinks is best. You can look at life as settling or you can look at it as finding the best match for your abilities, your resources and celebrating that. I much prefer the latter line of thinking.</p>
<p>You’re right, poetgrl–perhaps this To Ivy or Not to Ivy is a bit premature and would better be put off till next year when it will be clear whether there will actually be a issue. LOL!</p>
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<p>Most of the big merit scholarships (except for the big national ones) come through the schools themselves. With the Ivys, there are no institutional merit scholarships, so don’t expect anything from them for being a NMF with good grades and test scores except an “Attaboy.” </p>
<p>Most of the local scholarships are of small amount (compared to an Ivy COA) and often are a one time thing. Many of our local scholarships factor in need heavily. So unless there is a great local scholarship (like the Buck Scholarship for kids in the Sacramento area) or your kid wins a national scholarship (VERY competitive), thinking that you’ll win enough scholarship money to make a dent in your Ivy COA is optimistic at best.</p>