<p>We had a very similar situation at our high school a few years ago. Parent made a kid stand at the door of the high school with a sign that said “I’m an idiot - i flunked math”. After about ten minutes the police showed up, escorted the kid into the building. Two days later, the boy and his two little sisters were removed from their home. DHS did an investigation and found very real and very clear signs of abuse, both physical and emotional within the home. Within six months all three kids were in permenant foster care, heading for adoptions. School and other kids had suspected abuse for a while, but this was the first actionable incident. One thing we all learned from this is that the need/desire to publicly humiliate someone is a classic sign of an abusive realtionship.</p>
<p>The good news? The kid went on to live with a friend’s family, graduated from high school and joined the Navy. His sisters were both adopted by the same family and they are just now entering high school.</p>
<p>I’m glad to see so many perfect parents. So omniscient. It’s enlightening to see that some people can read an article and know everything about this particular student, his parents, and their relationship for the last 15 years. I wish I had such insight. So anything that could be considered a “negative” reinforcement is wrong. I’ll have to remember that. I suppose it really is wrong to also let children play games where they keep score. We definitely don’t want any child to “Feel” bad because they lost. There’s obviously no positives for playing any “competitive” activities. I tell you, some parents here really need to write a book. Apparently there is a step by step procedure for raising children. If followed correctly, your children will grow up perfect also. I’ve obviously done a pretty lousy job at raising all my kids. Their success academically, socially, etc… must be an accident. With them all in college and calling or texting me every couple of days just to talk and say hi, must be the insecurity I instilled in them; and thus making them dependent on me. And when they won’t let a phone or PM conversation end without saying “I love you”, must be a forced response. Boy do I have a lot to learn. I guess I should just thank God; oops, I suppose there is no God; well bless my “lucky stars” that my children turned out successful DESPITE my involvement in their lives. Definite thanks for this education in “Proper Parenting”. (yes, all sarcasm)</p>
<p>lololu, What a good reminder that paying attention to the signs of abuse, including public humiliation, can yield a very positive change in a child’s life.</p>
<p>Teen or no, afadad may have a point… There could be much to this situation that we don’t know, and more context might show that the parents’ action was exactly what the kid needed. Wouldn’t work with mine, even if for some reason he needed a serious intervention… but I could see something similar working for some of his classmates. If the kid is capable but lazy, with a strong ego but public opinion is important to him, maybe it was a useful tool in making a lasting impression for a dramatic turnaround. “Tough love” is often tough on the parents as well as the kid, not to be entered lightly or without compelling reasons imho… but it’s important not to back down once engaged.</p>
<p>(PS: The case lololu mentioned – with “I’m an idiot” sign – is clearly over the top imho. Big difference between “I didn’t do the work” and “I’m an idiot,” plus other signs of abuse in that case. Whereas the kid in the OP’d video doesn’t seem particularly scarred by his incident.)</p>
<p>geek-mom; thank you for understanding the concept and point I was trying to make. I never once said that what this parent did was the “Right” thing to do. But neither did I say it was the “Wrong” thing to do. That is my point in a nutshell. All children/people are different; and as such, there are very few definites when it comes to interacting with individuals. Yes, there are some that we all agree on; but those are “social” acceptances. There was a time where some things were socially acceptable and no longer are. But that doesn’t mean they are definitely wrong or definitely right. We have a death penalty in many states. Many countries DON’T. We are having the exact same debate. One thinks certain behavior is wrong, another thinks it’s fine. I personally believe that it “Depends” on the individuals involved.</p>
<p>pugmadkate; please don’t demonstrate your prejudice. There are a lot of people who when they can’t logically argue a point, they will project their frustration on another person by trying to belittle them. You’re too good for that. But the problem with forums is that anyone can lie about their identity. So, it doesn’t matter what I tell you of who or what I am; you don’t have to believe it if you don’t want to. So if you want to believe I am some teenage kid; go for it. But let me ask you this. WHY would a teenage kid SUPPORT AND DEFEND the actions of this parent with their child? If anything; wouldn’t a teenager believe that this was as close to child abuse as possible? Also, remember, I have not and do not defend this parent’s action. I simply said that you, nor anyone else here, has the full story. None of us has any proof that such discipline is or could be harmful to this student. Hell, for all we know, the parent could have given the teen some choices of some form of punishment. This could have been his idea. I doubt it, but the point remains; we don’t know the full story.</p>
<p>On the positive side, the parents are involved and want their son to do better, but I think being in the national news for crappy grades is pretty brutal. I’m guessing they didn’t intend that.</p>
<p>afadad, When you start your post out with a tantrum about how we must all believe we are perfect parents, I feel comfortable drawing some conclusions. </p>
<p>Abused children support and defend their parents. It’s not uncommon at all. Again, I question your maturity when you offer that as some kind of compelling arguement. Nor is there any context that will have me say, “Oh, well then, sure, humiliating your child is valid.” </p>
<p>My position that no child should be subjected to humiliation (public or private) or corporal punishment is hardly a controversial postion, no matter how hard you pushing the idea that children should be subjected to their parents whims with no judgement from anyone else.</p>
<p>^I entirely agree. I believe there is no justification nor excuse for this kind of parenting. Using shame and humiliation to teach and guide children is just plain wrong. Even if doing so accomplishes a specific goal in mind, I believe it’s at an unnecessary cost when more mature, humane and respectful approaches could have accomplished the same thing.</p>
<p>This is akin to a teenage girl eating a lot of chocolate and her parents making her stand outside with a sign that says “I’m Fat” because they want her to eat healthy food. </p>
<p>Both are things a person shouldn’t do (eat an obscene amount of chocolate/slack off in school), both are things a person should do (eat healthy/do schoolwork), both humiliate the kid (insinuate she’s fat/insinuate he has no future). Yet if my analogy was a news story, I guarantee all of you would be freaking out and claiming it’s abuse.</p>
<p>Well pug; considering you came to your “conclusion” before I made my so called “Tantrum Post”; I think my point is made. And you are definitely entitled to your opinions. However; as much as you’d like to believe that you are “RIGHT”, there are some things that are controversial, whether you want to believe they are or not. But you still think in too much black and white. So continue on with your beliefs. You raise your children and I’ll raise mine. As for the parent/teen who are the topic of this discussion, I’ll reserve judgment until after I know all the facts. And being I doubt that we will know all the facts, I will not judge. I am thankful however that our judicial system doesn’t comprise itself of the “media” being the court reporter and people such as yourself being allowed to be jury and judge. Fortunately it allows for ALL sides of the truth to be exposed. And that my friend is/was the full intent of my diatribe. That we are not in a position of judging. But you are definitely free to believe as you will.</p>
<p>^Wow, that kills all the fun doesn’t it? So I’m not supposed to have any judgments about things I read in the paper? Its not often I’m part of the actual news story or in court to hear the opinions. Granted, news is biased and incomplete, but I’ve not yet met such an enlightened person who doesn’t have a judgmental opinion about stories covered in the news. Kudos to you if you manage it.</p>
<p>I like to think that I too am a relativist, but there are some things that I see as black and white. Probably you do too. Having sex with a child for example: wrong no matter what, I don’t need the details or context to know its wrong. Physically abusing your child? Yes, also always wrong. Verbally abusing your child? Yup, same opinion. Public humiliation…always wrong. Time outs or physical isolation? Well, there I might think it’s okay in some cases, not so in others, others might say no way its always wrong…and so on.</p>
<p>Where we disagree is where you and I draw the line on what is black and white, and what is dependent upon the context and requires more information.</p>
<p>starbright; I’m positive that you understand the difference, and are capable, of formulating an “opinion” without formulating “judgment”. You can tell by some of the tones that there was judgment being passed. Without looking back, I don’t remember seeing one person say; “IF THIS IS TRUE”; or “Assuming what we read is the whole story”; or anything similar. Sorry, but I do know the difference between opinions and judgments.</p>
<p>I didn’t suggest you didn’t know the difference between opinion and judgment. I apologize if you misunderstood my post as that wasn’t what I was trying to convey at all.</p>
<p>Let me try again. If you read about say, oh, I dunno…a child being hit many times with a blunt object for punishment, would you not be immediately negatively judgmental about it, or would you say “well, it all depends on the particular kid and the details of the situation to which we do not know…” </p>
<p>My point- I think- is that we are all very judgmental about some parenting behavior that we consider wrong no matter the details. This happens to be one where you feel it depends on the situation, for others its more black and white (and I assume you too would be equally judgmental about hearing of a kid hit with the blunt object, or sexually abused, or verbally abused, or fill-in-the-blank here).</p>
<p>This is not a debate between some of us being more judgmental about others’ parenting and others of us being more open to others parenting until we get more facts. (indeed if all of us were reading about some parents who claim to hit their kid with blunt objects, we would all be equally negatively judgmental).</p>
<p>Rather, it’s a debate based on some of us thinking this particular parental behavior is so egregious that additional details will not change one’s judgment (so yes they are judgmental now!), but for others its a not so bad behavior and thus it depends on having more information before one judges.</p>
<p>I understand where you are coming from; and I do agree. I think however that my biggest “Hang-up” is that I rarely TRUST the media. Just because I read it in a newspaper, doesn’t mean it’s what it appears. I’ve been very active in politics for a long time. I know how ANY topic or subject can be spun. I don’t trust the media. But you are correct that we ALL will tend to judge a situation on initial exposure to it. I personally try, albeit difficult at times, to refrain from judgment if at all possible.</p>
<p>I don’t trust the media either. In fact I teach an entire class on that very topic in my critical thinking class. The quality of media- whether MSM or othewise- has greatly declined and it is to our detriment. </p>
<p>Unfortunately I’m also a very judgmental person. I would like to be open minded, and while I like to believe I’m open to changing my opinion as more facts roll in, I don’t have the luxury of waiting around as seldom I have access to or confidence of additional information. Sure I can surf my favorite blogs, and alternative media sources but research shows we invariably gravitate to the equally biased sources that just happen to match and confirm our prior beliefs and opinions. Name a viewpoint and you’ll find the ‘trustworthy’ news source that supports it!</p>
<p>But does it matter? Does it matter that we have judgments on people and events we will never meet or influence? Judgment does enable us to have a conversation and debate. So whether we really know the facts of a given news article isn’t really relevant, is it? What’s valuable is the debate that ensues and what kinds of ideas and beliefs (and maybe even learnings) we glean from that debate (beyond the immediate news event). </p>
<p>So who cares if we have negative judgments of this set of parents we’ll never meet (and they’ll never know of us). What’s useful - to us and society as a whole- is that we DEBATE what is and is not acceptable parental practices.</p>
<p>Starbright; Agree 100%. And in a debate, there will always be that one pragmatist. The one who will play devil’s advocate and give the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. I guess that’s me. At least in this debate. In this particular thread, the debate boils down to perception. The general consensus seems to be that this teenager was publicly humiliated and probably scarred emotionally; and thus abused. But I contend that humiliation is a state of mind. Just like some people can have their feelings hurt easier than others. Or how some people are just more emotional than others. So, because “some” people consider this student abused or humiliated, because they “feel” that they would have been humiliated had it happened to them, does it mean he was? I remember my first week in basic training when I joined the military. “Quite a few years ago”. It was important that we kept our clothes all folded perfectly for inspections every day. We all tried to find ways to cheat so we wouldn’t have to fold all our clothes every day. One airmen basically wore 2 pairs of underwear. Each night, he would wash one while he showered. Allowing it dry overnight. This way he kept 5 pairs folded perfectly at all times. The drill sergeant caught on, and as part of his discipline was calling this individual a pig, dirty, not changing his underwear, etc… He made the young man walk around the barracks on all 4’s yelling; “I’m A PIG… I’M A PIG… I’M A PIG”. Now, was this humiliating? Yes. Did it scar the young 18 year old for life? Probably not. Why? Probably because of his surroundings. Because he knew, as well as the sergeant, than everyone there was trying to “Beat the system”. As such, the young man probably knew that his peers understood, and that he just happen to be the one who got caught.</p>
<p>So, will there be those reading this that believe the young man was publicly humiliated and therefor abused? Most definitely. But was he? I served with him for about 9 more months. It didn’t seem to have affected him. It definitely made for some pretty funny war stories later on. Even though it wasn’t too funny to him at the time. So, isn’t humiliation and other personal emotions a matter of perception? Aren’t they handled differently by each individual. I know that whenever I have to tell someone bad news; e.g. a death in the family or similar; I can’t help for the life of me to stop smiling and giggling. Most people know that I am probably not the right person to announce bad news. It’s my way of dealing with it. I doubt that I am disturbed. Just different. We all are. My very first degree was in Psychology. While I loved it, I found that no matter what you learn about people, cultures, and civilizations, there are always exceptions to every rule when people are involved. There are very few hard rules when it comes to human behavior. What is normal is just an accepted term we use to categorize the majority. But for an individual, the abnormal could be normal. I think that’s why I preferred learning computers and electronics. Math has more solid answers.</p>
<p>Anyway; everyone is free to have their opinions and judgment. I will continue to see the world my way. I am the eternal optimist. I tend to give the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. And I will continue to believe that basically, there is a time for every purpose under heaven.</p>