I’m not laughing at the violence. But I’m not cowering in fear of the guys that assembled in C-ville, and am suggesting that there are weapons that can be used against their cause that would be more effective than direct confrontation. Fighting their weakness rather than their strength. Public shaming. At the very least, not taking their bait.
I agree with that. When dealing with a group having guns, I think it was dumb and dangerous to attack them with clubs. No good was going to come of that. I sometimes think that letting something stand alone as exactly itself is the most clarifying. Letting the racist monsters stand in their ignorance without muddying the waters would have shown the world exactly who they are. (However, I don’t think it’s right that the wrong people got identified and had to seek shelter from threats of violence).
As I said before, I have an aunt who felt exactly the same…and did so to the point even the recent Science March was considered by her to be a “riot”.
It’s reflective of the uncritical “all sides are equally bad” mantra which has been popular among some who don’t want to take the time/effort to critically examine and analyze for different circumstances, contexts, or whether the group/ideas being protested against do cross a strong moral/ethical/existential line*.
- I.e.: White Supremacist ideologies with a long historical track record of harshly oppressing(i.e. slavery) or even perpetuating violence or even genocide against non-White groups.
All such groups make no bones about the fact their end-game is a society in which only Whites as they define it are dominant and the rest of us(non-Whites, Jews, Slavs, Roma, in some cases Catholic(Big thing with the KKK), anyone who espouses ideas even intimating pluralistic democratic ideals, etc) are relegated to the underclass(untermenschen in Nazi lingo) or murdered wholesale(lynchings, mass executions, gas chambers, the ovens, etc).
As such, folks holding such anti-humanistic and frankly. anti-democratic ideals…especially of the pluralistic kind hold beliefs which don’t allow for any room for any negotiation or compromise in practice despite some false protestations as we should have learned from what transpired with the KKK here in the US and the rise of Fascist regimes in Europe during the 30’s and 40’s.
While some law and order is needed, please be mindful that Fascist regimes like the Nazis rose and were facilitated by and strongly supported by the “Good German” majority in the name of “law and order”.
It’s one reason why many who lived through that time are wary of that very phrase as it was a “dogwhistle” used by Fascist regimes in their rise and during their horrific rule and still used by unreconstructed diehards and their sympathizing followers.
This also extends to Japan as shown by recent massive protests against the current Abe* administration for attempting to revive a Public Security law from the Imperial/militaristic era in the name of “law and order” which was heavily used to harshly prosecute and oppress political dissent…especially from pro-pluralistic democratic oriented groups.
In fact, such oppression was so effective that by the late '30s/early '40s, there was no real meaningful political dissent within Imperial Japan…they were either imprisoned or killed off.
- Not helped by the fact those familiar with his background know his grandfather was a former Imperial Japanese colonial official who was indicted as a Class-A war criminal before Cold War expediency meant the US and its Allies closed off any further War crimes trials in Japan before his case was to be tried.
@MomofJandL Seriously, there was nothing funny about those hateful individuals, or at what they were chanting.
@MomofJandL No one is naive enough to say that direct confrontation at a rally is enough to contain neo-Nazis. We have laws, civil rights regulations, police and judges for that.
The purpose of counter-rallies is to make a very public statement that white supremacists are contrary to everything this country stands for. It’s a way to tell people of color, Jews, Muslims, LGBT and everyone else white supremacists make no bones about hating and wanting to “disappear” - we’ve got your back. It’s a way to bring together communities and people who all want one thing: to live in a peaceful place welcoming to all.
If you have a problem with that, well, you’ve got a problem with the very ideals on which this country is based. (In theory, at least, lol.) This country was born of protest. And this country has seen protest bring immense positive change to this society. It’s sad that you have to take to the streets to fight for your rights. But so be it. We won’t give in.
I agree that standing up for one’s principles is important. I just disagree on the way to do it. Reasoned arguments. The written word. One’s own example. These are the way.
I just abhor violence.
@alwaysamom - That’s certainly your opinion. But there are also a lot of individuals on both ends of the political spectrum who are mocking and making fun of the Tiki torch bearers because they looked like such idiots carrying around their Tiki torches filled with citronella oil.
Why mock them? Because it takes some of the wind out of their sail.
Is what that group stands for deplorable? Absolutely. Are they offensive? Definitely.
Perhaps some people just aren’t protesters. I’ll admit, I have never formally protested anything in my life, nor did I grow up in an environment where protesting was common, so as a result, when I see protesters or demonstrators out on the street, it’s something I just can’t relate to.
As for slogans and chants, I think they are incredibly cheesy, and not at all effective in persuading me on a particular issue. In fact I am far more likely to tune out, or stop listening/watching to whatever protest is going on when I see/hear them. They’re just annoying.
FWIW, one of the most interesting protests I can remember happened about 7 years ago here in my local area. It was a protest against a California state proposition. There was a friendly group of around 10-15 people sitting on the grass near the street corner, smiling and waving at folks who drove by. They had a table set up and were handing out pamphlets to people which explained the reason for their protest. No gaudy picket signs or obnoxious shouting… it was quiet and the people were peaceful and friendly. I am far more likely to be persuaded on an issue if you protest like these people did.
Like the Boggart in Harry Potter. Making something ridiculous takes away some of it’s power.
OK… a little humor here… please know it’s tongue in cheek
Nazis: Let’s commit genocide.
Antifa: Let’s not.
BLM: Stop shooting us.
Centrist: I can’t tell these apart.
An interview with a historian who studied the Nazi Bund movement in 1930’s America:
http://gothamist.com/2017/08/14/nazi_rally_history_msg_nyc.php
@katliamom – perfect!
I’ve been hesitating about posting this.
Mocking and ridicule can sometimes be successful in changing behaviors or acceptable norms. However, I am not sure it ever actually changes minds. I’m not a fan of ridiculing those with whom we disagree, because it seems to me to only increase polarization, and has the potential to perhaps anger someone over the edge to violence.
Otoh, satire can be an important tool in social change.
After 9-11, American flags were everywhere; flown from every home in the country, flown from every car. That sort of speech against the hatred and violence was more profound than anything.
A few years ago I had an appointment to be fitted for a chemo wig sidetracked by a public demonstration that blocked the streets around the wig maker. I cried, both in frustration I might not be able to get a wig, something my young kids needed me to do for their own mental health, but also because I was so conflicted in my feelings, caught between pride in a positive and peaceful public demonstration and anger that it was making it impossible to fulfill my needs at a vulnerable time. I was eventually able to make it to the wig shop but it was a very strange day.
^^ I can see how that would be maddening, @Sue22… as if life itself suddenly conspired against you. I’m sorry you had to go through it.
@alh… I know what you mean about humor being tricky… but I tend to side with those supporting it and satire.
Charlie Chaplin’s Hitler who kicked around an inflated globe… Zero Mostel’s ‘Springtime for Hitler and Germany.’… nuclear war in Dr. Strangelove… corrupt White House officials in ‘Wag the Dog’ – none of these changed history and probably offended some viewers .
Yet they made us feel better for just a bit and I am grateful for their existence.
Mockery & satire & humor is really important. Saturday Night Live is a great example. Nothing is sacred with SNL. They mock every single president.
I agree with both posts above. However I believe ridiculing far right protesters, like those marching in Charlottesville, has more chance of inspiring violence on their part than preventing it. fwiw
While one always idealistically hopes one can charge the minds of those who hold ideals which leave no room for compromise as is the case with White Supremacist groups like the KKK and the Nazis, that’s unfortunately not the reality in most cases.
More importantly, due to the well beyond the pale heinous end-game demonstrated track record of their beliefsi.e. (Various genocides like the Holocaust), the onus is on them to make the change before they can be accepted and trusted again in the larger community of reasonably decent-minded people.
This was underscored by the father who publicly denounced his younger son’s participation in the White Supremacist demonstrations and declared him persona-non-grata until the son renounces his pro Nazi beliefs.
More importantly, the point of the counterprotests isn’t meant to change the mind of the White supremicists…it’s more meant to:
- Show groups targeted by White Supremacists for hateful rhetoric, harassment, and violence that we got their back as katiamom and others here have stated.
- Take a public stand of expressing strong disagreement and disavowal of the White Supremacists and their horrific ideals.
- Making those who are genuinely unaware or otherwise sitting on the fence aware that there is opposition and persuading them on why White supremacist ideals are so horrid and an underlying existential threat to our pluralistic democratic ideals.