D24 is a strong student–4.0 UW GPA, 5th in her class of 240, 1400 SAT. She is on the spectrum and couldn’t tolerate remote/zoom school and she withdrew for a year, but finished all her high school requirements in the 3 years years of school she did attend.
When she originally applied to colleges, she planned to major in math. After taking AP Physics and AP Calc BC, she has decided she would like to study mechanical engineering.
She applied to 2 safeties–our state flagship UMaine and Wheaton College (MA)–and then a number of schools that would be reaches for any candidate (Dartmouth, Brown, Amherst, Bowdoin, etc).
Ultimately, she was rejected at the ivies and waitlisted at all the NESCACs she applied to. She was admitted to both Wheaton and UMaine with generous merit and Honors Program.
She likes the campus and the vibe of Wheaton and the merit gets us to our budget. But it’s complicated to major in engineering there. They offer the 3-2 engineering option with Dartmouth. None of the schools she has been waitlisted for, except Trinity, has an engineering program. So even if they come through, it would be similar to Wheaton.
She is considering majoring in physics undergrad at Wheaton and studying engineering for grad school.
She is not sure UMaine is a fit for her culturally. She prefers a more diverse student body and also likes to be around other high achievers, finding it motivating.
We are going to tour UMaine this weekend and she will think through her options. My questions for the CC collective are as follows:
For the engineers out there and others in the know, what is the perception of UMaine for engineering?
Do students fare well in internships and jobs?
Will she be surrounded by smart, motivated students?
If she chooses the alternative (ie, Wheaton and a 3-2 engineering program or majoring in math/physics and pursuing engineering in grad school), is that a reasonable path for an engineering career?
Knowing the high rate of attrition in engineering programs, and also knowing my daughter, who is a STEM kid but prone to changing her mind, does it make sense to base the undergrad decision on this one major?
U Maine has a good reputation in engineering (I say that as an engineer and an “outsider” living in the state). If she wants to be an engineer, I would pick that school out of the ones you mentioned. I wouldn’t major in physics. I would take as many engineering design classes as I could. Grad school isn’t long enough to bring you up to speed in what you need to know.
In general I am not a fan of the 3/2 programs as for different reasons (ex. want to graduate with class at first school, don’t meet requirements for the engineering program, etc.) many students do not follow through with the engineering part of the program. You would also need to understand the cost for the two years at Dartmouth (including the fifth year which is unlikely to qualify for financial aid).
If you want to study MechE, in theory study MechE.
Now, I understand your student needs fit - but Dartmouth is no guarantee.
You also need to ensure you get an ABET degree at Dartmouth - so you don’t need the AB but rather the BE. You need to ensure the 3-2 leads to the BE (which at Dartmouth is 5 years) so for you it might be 6.
So a few things:
How many students follow on a 3-2 - because you are leaving your friends and starting new elsewhere where people are established.
Another year of tuition - can you afford Dartmouth?
A year less of income
Is the Dartmouth culture suitable?
Lots to think about.
Good luck.
PS - I think there’s too much risk - you should ask what stats are needed to get into Dartmouth or what has worked in the past. If this blows up, then what? Now other schools, less competitive may take Wheaton kids - but it’s obviously not pre set - and that risk is my concern.
But I understand that UMaine might not be right - so I get that trepidation.
She is really kicking herself that she didn’t apply to UConn. She put in an app there in March, and also URI and New Paltz. So far, she has only heard back from New Paltz–in! But she feels it’s too far from home. She would likely be branched at UConn. So, not sure these will offer better options. She could start at UMaine and transfer to UConn if it is not a fit. She would miss out on merit, but there is the New England tuition break program.
Being on a campus that has higher levels of engineering is part of what is engaging and keeps them going in those tough intro classes. I am not a fan of the 3+2 programs, but the one to Dartmouth is even less appealing.
The pathway to Dartmouth Engineering is not a great pathway to Engineering as it is just a general BA or BE in Engineering they offer to undergrads. And it is a fifth year to finance even with good financial aid.
Umaine is also going to have more options and majors if she decides to switch majors.
I hope UMaine sparks something in her this weekend! She could probable have a masters in a specific kind of engineering in 5 years at UMaine if she wanted that.
At the Wheaton admitted student day, she attended a program about the engineering pathway and realized it was not a sure thing. Dartmouth only accepts 22 students a year from all partner institutions. This year, they did accept 4 Wheaton students, but no idea how many applied.
Thanks for all the great insights and thoughts. As for UConn vs UMaine–hoop fever also struck her recently as a fan (although UMaine women’s basketball has a strong history too). Also, most of her high school friends will be studying at different schools in that general area. It’s also more selective than UMaine, so there is that. Then again, UMaine will be less than $15K/year for us all in after merit. It’s hard to argue with that, but I want her to feel this is her decision. In terms of family equity, the agreement is I will pay generally what I am paying for her sister (~$30K per year after merit).
A friend’s child is graduating from UMaine with an ME degree. She’s also on the spectrum and never really found her people there but she got a good education. She had internships after her sophomore year and got a great offer but chose a fully-funded PhD program instead. Overall, it was a good experience. Definitely visit if you can.
My guess is that all of the kids who get through an ABET accredited engineering program will be very bright. Hopefully your D will have a good visit to UMaine this weekend.
Attrition tends to be high for 3+2 programs, in that most frosh entrants with that intention do not eventually transfer to the “2” school to finish the engineering major. Likely reasons:
Cost – and extra year, with uncertain financial aid at the “2” school.
Not admitted to transfer to the “2” school.
With limited engineering course work, clubs, and extracurriculars at the “3” school, may be more prone to losing interest.
After 3 years, may not want to transfer away from the LAC and their friends there to the “2” school with a different environment.
The difference between science and engineering is the difference between studying the natural universe versus solving design problems. Which is more likely to be the student’s preference?
New Paltz could be a nice option - a more intimate environment in a very nice locale, but with engineering. Could you possibly visit? It isn’t that much farther from Maine than UConn is. Seems to me that it kind of hits the sweet spot, combining the vibe she prefers with the academic offerings she wants.
If she’s happy at Wheaton, it will be disruptive to have to switch to Dartmouth, and as already noted, the cost of the hypothetical 5th year may be more breathtaking than you expect. I would consider it more likely that if she goes to Wheaton, engineering won’t end up happening - that’s the outcome with most who start 3:2 programs.
Maine has honors housing, which could give her more of the kind of community she wants. (First come first served, though - has she applied for housing? You can apply without having committed yet.)
Reviewing your initial post and the other responses, I am really concerned about Wheaton if she is set in MechE. 3+2 programs present some social difficulties in terms of continuity with classmates. Additionally, Do I correctly understand Dartmouth’s Engineering degree is a General Engineering degree?
Go to admitted students day at UMAINE, or if concerns that is too crowded, set up a separate time to meet with admissions and someone from Engineering and Honors individually. S23 had an Honors College admission to UMAINE, and the separate housing/study space was attractive. Out impression was that there were strong students in that program making an effort to avail themselves of everything UMAINE has to offer. We also really liked all department presentations. I’d give it some real consideration.
Alternatively, she can consider a gap year and look at some other schools like UCONN, WPI, UMASS-Amherst or Lowell, or UNH.
My understanding of the engineering discipline is limited. (I’m a humanities PhD.) The 3-2 program with Dartmouth does grant a BE, but I think it’s in general engineering. The website (Dual-Degree | Dartmouth Engineering) says students pick a concentration, but I gather that’s not the same as majoring in MechE?
I agree that the back and forth between campuses could be tough, especially for D24. Transitions are not her strong suit. Nor is extended unstructured time, so would be concerned about the gap year. I suggested a postgrad year at a BE, but she’s not interested.
We’re visiting UMaine Sunday. She was there for a state science comp recently and said she didn’t like the campus. But that is a superficial takeaway, so we’ll take another look and reach out to the department. They extended their commitment date to June 1. Good to know that you can begin housing process without having committed.
She just heard she got into New Paltz yesterday and that deadline is May 1. It will be impossible to visit by then. She is extraordinarily busy these next few weeks (spring sport, AP exams, senior prom, state quiz bowl competition, etc), but I agree that that could be another great option. It’s 5 hours from here. UConn is 3.5. UMaine is just over 2.
Engineering is a difficult degree with lots of prerequisites, labs, group projects etc. It is best to start in a program and continue there. Find what supports are offered and use them. Lots of deadlines, group meetings etc etc. I do not recommend 3+2 for a student that already knows they want engineering. I would choose U Maine for sure. Perhaps transfer to another engineering school if truly miserable due to fit. When it comes to internships the most important parameter is “hassling”. Get a good gpa if possible, get relevant electives, do some research, work on that resume and apply early and widely and study for the interviews. Also for a graduate with good gpa is super easy to get accepted to terminal masters degree even in top name schools. So if 5 years is considered for 3+2, I better do 4 at U Main and then pay for 1 year masters in school of choice.
Your daughter did not give herself a reasonable chance to have more options.
Her visit to the University of Maine will be important. Focus on the ME major. University of Maine’s 6 year graduation rate is not good (under 48%) so it would be wise to stay in honors housing and find other disciplined, motivated students as friends.
With respect to Wheaton College, I agree with all of the posters above. Important to know how many Wheaton students applied (you already know that 4 were accepted) to Dartmouth College for the 3+2 engineering program.
I was going to say something similar. I don’t think Engineering kids usually have to worry about being around other smart, motivated students.
I get the concern about switching out of Engineering, but if she does something like Physics or Math instead, it will be more of the same in the upper-level courses.