Unrealistic Kids and the Parents Who Indulge Them

Parents Forum
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TatinG, what makes you think these parents haven’t told their children that they face long odds? I know many dancers who have had some variation of that conversation with their parents. And the head of the dance studio they attended was also not shy about discussing the poor chances for earning a comfortable living as a dancer. </p>

<p>Just as we can’t all be Broadway stars or billionaire entrepreneurs or soloists with New York City Ballet, so we can’t, and shouldn’t, all be nurses, physical therapists, and accountants (to name three of the 10 most secure professions as listed by the Department of Labor). I’m surprised you find such an epidemic of what, in my experience, is an unusual family dynamic.</p>

<p>You seem to be responding to the fact that your friends who find themselves funding kids in insecure professions are unhappy and turn to you for support. If you tell them you think they’re indulgent parents funding their kids’ unrealistic dreams, I’ll bet you anything they stop bothering you with their tales of woe. ;)</p>

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<p>I’ve often regretted that I didn’t pursue a straight art degree. I did something that seemed more practical and for the most part I’ve enjoyed it, but I miss having enough time to paint.</p>

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<p>For this it is NEVER to late to find time.</p>

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<p>My father got full scholarships to two prestigious NYC art schools 20 years ago, but his parents had this picture of artist bums and discouraged him so much and refused to support any such decision that he didn’t go. He wishes he did, and knows he should have pursued his artwork (he had already proven he could make money with it in advertising and doing artwork for famous musicians). He’s a captain now and loves being on the water, but does NOT love the company he is with. That’s an example of parents trying to be too “realistic.”</p>

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<p>I have a cousin, now in his mid-50’s, who is a professional artist (painter). After he graduated from college, he worked as a cook in a hotel to make enough money to go to Europe to continue his education as an artist. He showed very clear signs of wanting to pursue art as a career from the age of 4 (at least). He lived a sort of collegiate-bare-bones life style for quite a while, but he’s been quite successful. His work is carried by galleries in New York, San Francisco, and Los Angeles. Peter Norton (of the Norton Utilities) owns one of his larger works. </p>

<p>His parents weren’t wealthy at all. I think that my aunt and uncle were quite brave about encouraging him to pursue a calling that many might have considered “unrealistic.” I think the word “passion” is badly over-used. But for a lot of people, it’s as if the work chooses them.</p>

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<p>TatinG, was this the article in the LA Times about the singer who wanted to be a homeowner?
[Gwen</a> Stewart Money Makeover: Performer with a volatile income yearns to own a house - Los Angeles Times](<a href=“http://articles.latimes.com/2011/may/08/business/la-fi-money-makeover-stewart-20110508]Gwen”>Performer with a volatile income yearns to own a house)</p>

<p>When I originally read the article, I was impressed with how the actress had managed, and with her dedication. There were paths that she could have taken to be a homeowner, but she didn’t want to give up performing opportunities. She’s managing on her own. She’s not living off of anyone else. No, she doesn’t have great financial security, but she has other options if she needs to generate more money. This is hardly someone who is trying to find themselves on their parents’ dime–especially as she’s in her late 40’s.</p>

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<p>That is true but a lot of parents will persuade their child that they can paint “on the side” if they get a “sensible” job and they can go back to it later. The truth is, painting is just like any other discipline. The more you do it and the more education you get in it, the better you will paint. People won’t make much progress painting without instruction by themselves every once in a while. That might be fine for some people who want to just relax and paint as a recreational pursuit. A lot of people, though, want to see how good the can get and they regret ignoring that part of their personality.</p>

<p>My parents didn’t want me to go to art school. I insisted and paid for it myself. I am the only on of all of my siblings who is working at a career that I love. The others pursued more practical avenues (under duress) and are pretty miserable.</p>

<p>My D who just got her BFA knows that it will be difficult and that she will have to work harder than most to get less. It’s worth it to her.</p>

<p>I also think that there is more to succeeding in the arts than talent. I see a lot of marginally talented people succeed. An important factor is self advocacy. You have to promote yourself, be in the right places with the right people and believe that you are good so that you can convince others that you are. Talent is just a start.</p>

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<p>Someone I know (or well, am related to) did this. Except they were in their early 30s and the country is not America. As far as I know they are still doing it (it’s been 15ish years I think).</p>

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<p>For my kid in the arts, it wasn’t some “decision.” It’s who she is. She cannot NOT be in the arts. It’s not like she sat around deciding what career field to pursue in college. It’s been her life since she was in preschool. </p>

<p>EPTR wrote:</p>

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<p>This very much describes my own kid. She creates many of her own opportunities and doesn’t sit around waiting to be cast. In fact, she barely has time to ever audition due to being so busy with various projects and performances she is involved in. I won’t write out the many examples, but just mention a couple. One is that she wrote an original musical in which she plays the lead and the musical has been selected for things and been produced in NYC already. One thing has led to another with just that one endeavor but I don’t want to get too specific. One thing that has led to is being commissioned to write a musical for a major theater. Other work she has created for herself is she is about to release an original album of her own songs (she is also a singer/songwriter, and this is not in the musical theater genre) and has booked concerts in various NYC venues as a solo act (with her back up band). She has given private coaching to others. She is paid well as an accompanist and musical director for various things such as a well known university and for other arts organizations. She is involved in so much more than this but these are examples of initiating your own opportunities. For her, one thing has often led to another. Some weeks, she is performing in four different things (unrelated) and people contact her to do this or that project. She was asked to be in something tonight in fact. She was asked to be in something in a few days, featuring her as one of several women musical theater composers, performing her own material. I can hardly keep up with everything she is involved in but my point is that she creates and initiates opportunities for herself, in addition to networking and so forth. I agree that talent is just a start. Also, my D is pursuing several facets of the industry simultaneously and not just trying for one thing. She likes each of the facets she is involved in (primarily performing in musicals, singer/songwriter, and musical theater writer/composer), and has other survival jobs such as accompanist, coach, and musical director. Every single job she does is in her field. It is evolving but is not about landing one job or waiting to be discovered or cast. Sometimes she auditions and has been cast but that is not her primary focus as she is so busy involved in so many projects…she even turns down jobs!! She also has two agents…one for talent/performing and one for theater literary. </p>

<p>This is not as simple as graduating and getting hired for a job. She is always having to be a go getter and always looking to create and obtain a variety of jobs. She outlines yearly goals and creates “homework” for herself to do. She is busy 24/7 just like when she was a college student. She doesn’t even like not being busy. The twice/year she comes home to visit, she says she must work and accomplish things. And she does. It is not an easy path but it is her life. It is not something she just decided to do. It may be hard to explain to someone else who decides what to major in and what career to have and how much money they might earn, etc. This has been a calling and she has been doing it her entire life and it didn’t begin in college. Anyone who knows her never asked what she was going to college to do. It was a given. </p>

<p>Further, I believe that many who are successful in the arts have been able to accomplish that, in part, due to being supported (and I don’t simply mean financially) along the way. I feel bad for those who have a passion in the arts whose parents don’t want them to study it in college or insist on double majors and what have you. I don’t think my kid can begin to imagine that because we have been behind her pursuits 100% and we are happy that she loves what she does. It never was about how much money she could make. She does, however, have to make enough to live on and she does. What the future holds, I don’t know, but I feel very confident that my kid will have a career in the performing arts (well, she does so far). I can’t predict exactly what will happen next but I know it will be in her field. She can’t NOT do it. For some people, a job is a job. For many in the arts, it is one’s life, not just a job.</p>

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<p>My husband dropped out of college as an education senior. He ended up wandering all over the country for six or seven years. He had no idea what he wanted to do. It drove his family NUTS, because he was a very bright, capable young man.</p>

<p>He ended up living on a commune in Alaska for four years. They had no electricity or running water and grew most of their vegetables in hot houses. He helped build huge log structures. The builders would guess at the beam sizes, so DH started thinking there must be a way of figuring out the required dimensions more accurately. He began taking correspondence courses in engineering, and ended up going back to school for his BS and MS degrees in structural engineering (we met in engineering grad school). Now we own our own consulting firm and do OK! I’m very glad he didn’t stick with teaching to make his parents happy, because he is an outstanding engineer.</p>

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<p>To me, there is a distinct difference between a person who has a vision or goal, however slim it may be, and who is working hard towards this end, and someone who is coming up with some excuse, pipe dream and is not doing what s/he needs to be doing to achieve it. </p>

<p>If you have a child who truly wants to be an actor, singer, anything in the performing arts, auditions are a big part of life. It may take a bit before such a person gets to some sort of equilibrium in scheduling future possibilities with earning money in the meantime. If a parent wants to help such a person financially, and is able to do so, it can be ever so helpful. I don’t see any problem in doing that sort of thing. I look at it as the same as helping a kid with that first apartment, wardrobe, and supplies for a first job out of college. If a parent can do it, so much the better. Yes, people manage on their own a lot of the time, but most of us parents do want to help as much as we can. </p>

<p>Now if the said aspiring whatever, is not doing what s/he should be doing to make the goal possible and living off the support of an enabling parent, that is a whole other story. I don’t really differentiate between the body on the sofa at a parent’s house making a lackadaisical effort to find a job and the one lying on his own sofa on an apartment the parent is paying for, except for the dollar amount of futile payment. It’s really up to the family as to how much it can contribute to a student’s support when s/he is looking to break into a job. Some kids may have to come back home, and headquarter effort from mom/dad’s house and find a job immediately to pay their way while looking for what they want. Just like those kids who may have to live at home for college and commute. </p>

<p>As to what is reasonable support, for how long and for what fruits of the child’s labor is really something up to the parent and the money available. I’m certainly not going to sit there and make that judgment for others. I wish I had the monetary wherewithal to support my kids right after college so that they can get a toehold into what they want to do. And even if I had sufficient funds, I would withdraw my monetary support, if I felt that the kid were not putting the time and effort in pursuing those goals. I’m not about to judge the goals themselves.</p>

<p>Now if one of mine wanted to join some commune and wanted the funds from me as donations towards the support of that, I wouldn’t do it without some realistic goal in sight from it that I wanted to support. But unless I saw some truly detrimental activities of the commune, if that is what the kid wanted to do for a few years as an activity, it would not be my business, though how much financial support s/he would get from me is.</p>

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<p>Majoring in the fine or performing arts or other less lucrative fields is absolutely the decision of a students and his/her parents. But if this degree is going to cost more than $200,000, and be financed largely by loans, then this student is going to start out life with a huge double burden: paying off those loans with probably very spotty employment prospects, at least initially. The potential actor, artist, dancer might be better off to skip college and just start doing it: painting, dancing, acting, whatever, taking private or community acting classes or painting classes. They can always go back to school later if the arts profession doesn’t pan out.</p>

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<p>I haven’t read all the way through this thread so I apologize if this has already been addressed – but what about the parents of high school level kids who are indulging athletic fantasies. I know two sets of parents who are going to extreme lengths to cheer their kids on in soccer, football and basketball. Yes they are good athletes but the odds of them playing past high school or D3 in college are quite slim. All the while both of these kids are barely passing classes. And it’s not like these parents shouldn’t know better; both sets are highly educated.</p>

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<p>tptshorty…when I said it wasn’t a “decision,” I meant that my kid didn’t discuss what her major would be, as it was a given. We never discussed it. She applied directly into a program in the field of musical theater. There was never any question of supporting whatever major our kids wanted to do. NONE. </p>

<p>In our case, the parents took out loans, not the kids. We funded our kids’ educations in any field they wanted. Once they’re out of school, they must support themselves. But they are not the ones paying back the loans. We are.</p>

<p>You are talking of two extremes. First, there are parents being discussed who after college and for many years, are still financially supporting their kids. Then, you are talking of kids having to pay back college loans themselves after graduation. I’m talking about something in between (which happens to be the case with my own children) whereby the kids support themselves post graduation, but the parents paid for their education.</p>

<p>Btw, it is possible to become successful in the arts with out a college degree. However, training is essential and college is one place to get it. But more than that, college is not all about getting a job. My kids wanted to become educated people and so skipping college was not anything they would consider. A college degree in ANY major can serve you well in life, both as an educated person, but also as a basic requirement for many jobs (a major doesn’t dictate what jobs you can get in life…many adults work in fields unrelated to their major but where a college degree is a prerequisite).</p>

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<p>I know people very much like the people in the OP’s post, but a few years farther along the path.</p>

<p>– A young woman who attended five different colleges before graduating from Western Washington with a BA/BFA. She worked for seven years as a professional dancer and choreographer, although she never got to the point where she could support herself solely on her dancing and choreography. She danced in a production in New York for several months, but felt uncomfortable living there and went back to Seattle. She is engaged to a great guy, and in her second year of running a landscaping business. </p>

<p>– A man who delayed college to start a (fairly successful) business with a friend, and learned quickly that being friends and being business partners are two different things. Had a dream experience in college – really expanded his horizons, did original research. After college biked from Virginia to Colorado with some classmates, and is doing a wholesale baking business in the Rocky Mountains with his girlfriend.</p>

<p>– Gymnast migrated into circus arts in high school, and put herself through a third-tier public university (as a pre-med type major) performing with a Cirque-du-Soleil knockoff. Joined the troupe full time after college, but got injured and lost a full year rehabbing. Tried and failed to get a position with Cirque du Soleil itself, but was hired as an acrobat by a spin-off group of former CdS performers, and spent four years touring North America and Europe, living in various cities for 2-4 month periods, and travelling for a couple weeks between each city. Left the circus a year ago. Would like to become a physical therapist, but has failed to get admitted to any program. Is supporting herself as a yoga instructor. </p>

<p>– Lawyer worked at a building a legal practice for 15 years, first at firms, and then on his own, with marginal success. Struggled to support his family. His wife, unemployed and having difficulty finding a job, started a small business selling a particular product on eBay, then her own website. Within two years, both spouses were working super-full time in the business, and the attorney had abandoned his practice. They have an enormous income, and expect to sell the business within a few years and retire.</p>

<p>– College French major and amateur pianist was teaching French at a private school in a provincial city and accompanying singers and soloists who would come through periodically (the ones not well enough established to be able to bring their own accompanyists). A flautist convinced him to quit his job and come to New York to be a freelance accompanyist. Within a few years, he was her manager as well, and then he was managing a dozen classical musicians, and then he started a management company, and sold it a few years later . . . and he is CEO of a major artists’ management company.</p>

<p>Not a single one of these people is unhappy. They’ve taken risks, and some have paid off and some haven’t. But the only one who has any regrets is the lawyer who wasted years trying to make himself into something he wasn’t cut out to be.</p>

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<p>I don’t agree with part of this statement. There is value in high school sports even if the student never plays in college or is never recruited. My kid played three varsity sports in high school. She did continue one on the varsity level in college (wasn’t recruited) and one on the club level. But if she never did them in college, I could care less. She loved doing them from K-12. Colleges apparently looked favorably upon these extracurricular commitments as she got into highly selective colleges. </p>

<p>But in the case of the parents you are talking about where the students are doing poorly academically, that is a different story. A student who is truly doing poorly academically will need to cut back on ECs until they can time manage and succeed at academics. I don’t know how poorly you mean, however, because at our high school, you can’t participate in sports or other ECs if you have very poor grades (you said “barely passing”).</p>

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<p>I left behind a lot of money and prestige in law practice to become a counselor. It’s possible that I’ll make a high income from this someday, but it may or may not ever happen. My life is much more peaceful now, and I’m happy. I always encourage my students who are interested in this kind of path.</p>

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<p>Expanding on cpt’s post #19, there’s great value in letting a young person explore their dreams. Go to any college theatrical production and you’ll see that 90% of the cast has absolutely NO business thinking they’ll make a living through acting. Some may have to experience a few years on NYC to confirm this for themselves. But anyone with character will benefit from the knowledge that “I gave it a shot.” SO much better to do that than later-in-life resent one’s spouse/employer/community for being an obstacle.</p>

<p>That said, parents need to be out of the equation at some point. “I have an internship offer on Broadway, but I need eight grand a month to swing it.” just isn’t a constructive approach.</p>

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<p>We home schooled our daughter so that she could pursue competitive figure skating without compromising her education, and many people scoffed. (“Who are they kidding?” and “She can’t possibly be getting a good education.”) Fast forward a few years, and she’s a National Merit Scholar with great college acceptances. She’s also competing internationally and at the World Championships. Point being that almost no one thinks your child can make it till after she’s already made it. And almost everyone assumes you’re not educating your child until they hear about her college acceptances.</p>

<p>Our daughter doesn’t plan on making figure skating a lifetime career–she has other interests she will pursue in and post-college–but every minute she has put into excelling at this sport has been well spent. I wish I had had the opportunities she has had to pursue goals, develop self-dicipline and time management skills, deal with the vagaries of success and failure, and travel the world. </p>

<p>Of course, there will always be parents who indulge their children’s unrealistic expectations, but based on our own experience, we have become less quick to judge.</p>

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<p>I agree with Lady Lorna–after having one experience, I have come to the conclusion that maybe I’m not such a good judge of what is or isn’t realistic.</p>

<p>Our local high school has a one day program where seniors present themselves and their work to members of the community. The panel on which I sat had 4 adults and we listened and made comments on the presentations of 6 seniors.</p>

<p>One was one of the defensive stars on the football team. He wasn’t a hulk–less than 6 feet tall, was well built but not huge. Very serious young man. He told us that his plan after high school was to go to a good college and play football. He would then parlay that into a pro football career. YIKES! </p>

<p>We wished him good luck and advised him to take college seriously so that he’d have something to fall back on if the football thing didn’t work out. We all definitely thought the pro football thing was a pie in the sky dream. But I always kept an eye out to see what happened to him.</p>

<p>Well, he went off to a great football college, did fabulously, and has been a pro football player for 5 years. </p>

<p>What did we know?</p>