Unrealistic Kids and the Parents Who Indulge Them

Parents Forum
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<p>Soozie’s kids are very successful and self sufficient, so in her case, there really isn’t much she needs to do in terms of supporting them. My son is living hand to mouth as an actively auditioning actor. Even as he is in a production right now that is can support him, he is auditioning for the next gig. He is finally at an equilibrium where he has found semi long term part time projects that actually allow him to make ends meet. Barely. We live near by and, yes, I give handouts as do the grandmas and I know his brothers have helped out too. I wish I could just afford to pay for a place for him and say, “Honey, you just audition and work on projects you like, and I’ll pay the expense, for a couple of years and that way you can see if you can make it in this business” I would ever so like to do this, but I can’t. Don’t have what it takes in money. I have to limit our college contributions to the other kids as it stands. But I see no reason why a parent shouldn’t do that if s/he could. I ENVY those who could give their kids such opportunities.</p>

<p>DH and I were not really pleased at his choice of work/life because we knew that it would mean hustling all of the time for the next job even if considered successful. We are risk adverse people and the idea of living like that ties my stomach in knots. But that doesn’t mean my outlook is right. We did explain the pitfalls of going into the performing arts and DH still has suggestions of “real” jobs for him, but for now he is directing school performances, working on sets, doing something in the field as he looks for a good part in a show. This is what he wants to do. </p>

<p>Would I support this forever? For 20 years, 10 years? I think, even if I could I would pay his way, if he truly were not self sufficient in about 3 -5 years, even if he were working hard and doing all or the right things, I would schedule slowly withdrawing monetary support and shifting him to his own. But if he wants to live the way he is, for the rest of his life, on his own earnings, it isn’t for me to say. And though I am not as supportive as some stage/show parents, I do wish him well, and help him out here and there. </p>

<p>There are many former theater majors who are in many different fields. Several of DS’s friends from earlier years are back in school getting a masters in business or other field or are working in other jobs. They are doing just fine as compared to most kids who did not major in some direct career field discipline like engineering or nursing, or accounting. It’ s not as though most liberal arts majors are going to jump right into a self sufficient situation right out of school. </p>

<p>Actually performing arts kids seem to have a leg up in getting marketing sales, other “face” type jobs because of the skill that they had to learn in acting, auditioning, performing. Many of the same skills are what can tip a job to you on an interview. Learning to run a production is not all that different to the skill sets one has to have to manage anything. I was so impressed watching my son doing a young people’s theater production of Macbeth. what he had to do in getting the sound, lights, costumes, set as well as directing the production. Had to work with a variety of ages of kids. He now has a contract to do theater workshops during the first term of the school year at 2 schools. Not a whole lot of money, but not a huge time commitment either and he can work it around auditioning and any other job he gets. But it was very clear to me that the skills he learned in getting a BFA in MT truly taught him how to put a production together, organize, hire and all sorts of other things that I don’t even think management majors could do on a hands on basis right out of school.</p>

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<p>I think my point was missed. It’s absolutely awesome if affluent parents can pay for their kids’ performing or fine arts dream school. I have wealthy friends whose kids can study whatever they want. They will be fine no matter what, because they are from rich families.
They are majoring in musical theater, music, art, dance, etc. It does sound like lots of fun. I guess they can’t imagine doing anything else. Good luck to them.</p>

<p>But if the student has to take out huge loans for art school or music school, that’s a big risk. We live in L.A., and my husband works in the entertainment business, so we know a lot of successful professional artists and musicians. Most of them did not go to pricey art schools, or if they did, it didn’t cost what it costs now. We also know a lot of artists and musicians who are financial failures, who barely scrape by or are bankrupt. Maybe they got lucky with one TV show, but when that ended so did the money. We went to an animation awards show recently, and outside the event were dozens of desperate art students (of all ages) with their portfolios trying to get the working animators to look at them, shoving their portfolios in the animators’ faces. The lesson my D got about careers in TV from seeing that was priceless.</p>

<p>I think the bohemian life is all fine and dandy when you are in your 20s, but not when you are in your 40s or 50s and have no health insurance, no retirement savings, no house, and certainly no college savings for your kids. At least marry someone with a 401K and benefits.</p>

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<p>“But if the student has to take out huge loans for art school or music school, that’s a big risk.”</p>

<p>I agree, but I don’t recommend taking out huge loans for engineering school, either. There’s always a lot of risk in undergrad borrowing.</p>

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<p>This is very true. It is also true that an astonishing number of people who took the supposedly safe path and had conventional jobs and careers find themselves in precisely this situation in their 40s and 50s.</p>

<p>Two family members pursued studies in the arts. One majored in dance at Tisch, and is a working professional dancer in NYC at a famous institution that I will not cite for privacy reasons. Eventually she may turn to teaching…you know, just like the famous ballerinas who taught her when she was a kid at SAB. The other studied film and works in advertising.</p>

<p>Neither of them is saddled with loans, though, and both have substantial family money to fall back on. But they are self-supporting.</p>

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<p>One very sad story I know is of a beautiful, gifted, talented, brilliant young lady who wanted to go into performance. She did not get into the very top conservatories which her parents felt strongly were the only ones worth while considering for music. They would pay for her college only on the condition that she majored in something other than music performance at one of the selective schools to which she was accepted. Which she did, taking all the music courses she could on the side, and love, love, loving the music. After graduation her parents said they would support her audtions for just one year and if she were not at a certain level, they wanted her in law school. So she was to do her apps and study for LSATs as well that year. At the end of the year, though she was teaching , performing and living the world of music, she was also accepted to a number of law schools, which her parents insisted she attend. </p>

<p>There was a huge break there, but being a very traditional Asian family, she could not do it. Went to law school, and then could not find a job that offered self sufficiency locally, so she moved back home where her degree which was from a top 100 but not top 14 law firm was not marketable in her hometown where a lot of the hires are from the local law schools. </p>

<p>She is living at home, teaching music part time now and in several no pay/low pay performing groups, auditioning when she could. Neither she nor her parents are happy with the status quo and it pains them to answer the question of what she is doing, as she was truly one of the most promising students that graduated from her high school both academically and musically. Actually she is doing no worse than my kids who are not setting the world on fire, but the difference is that they made their decisions and are pretty much enjoying their lives and independence, and though, yes, I admit it, I wish they were making a lot more money in much more secure jobs, it is absolutely not a festering sore to DH and me and they are living their own lives. </p>

<p>I doubt if either of my kids, or any of them, for that matter would have done as I asked had I made such requests as this young woman’s family did. She was well raised to do as told and to listen to her parents (yes, as mine were), but it stuck with her. I believe her parents truly wanted to do the best for her and had and have the mindset of the OP.</p>

<p>I bring this up as I have had an update on the young woman who has moved out of her parents home and is living with a down and out musician, joining him in hs band and productions. The parents won’t even speak to her or of her , my friend told me. When I talked to her 5-6 years ago, she had no desire at all to ever become a lawyer despite great LSAT scores. She did it because she was told to do so. Yes, she has that law degree now, but the resentment, hurt that has festered over the years is really not worth her compliance which has come to this as it is. The truth is that there are many such stories when parents want their cat like kids to become swimmers. Yes cats can swim, but they don’t like it.</p>

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<p>Just for the record, we (and others we know) are not affluent. My kids qualified for need based aid. My D who went to college for MT, received large scholarships and we are paying loans for her education. You don’t have to be rich to study whatever you want. </p>

<p>The issue about taking out student loans and the wisdom of that is another issue entirely. The criticism here was even majoring in the arts in the first place, or if you are not rich and don’t want to support your kids after graduation. I’m not rich. I don’t support my kids after graduation. They are not swimming in the dough either. They majored in their passions. It is not just about “fun.” In fact, my performing arts D works her butt off seven days and nights per week. But she loves what she does.</p>

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<p>Wow. A Hebrew keyboard, and with vowels to boot. I’m impressed. :D</p>

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<p>Just people you know. :wink:
At least, not among anyone I know.</p>

<p>Just editing to say that it’s helpful if the parents cannot actually support their grown children anyway; it makes it a dead issue. Mine know that they have no choice but to make it on their own, or at least work toward that. That said, they are always welcome home for extended stays, and even between jobs, etc., but an indefinite or “permanent” stay with no foreseeable end date would not be realistic.</p>

<p>We do have close friends whose daughter is currently living at home but definitely working full time in an expensive city, in which her entry-level salary would be consumed by trying to live alone in that city. That makes perfect sense to me. (Bumming around does not.)</p>

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<p>cptofthehouse,
Actually, my kid who is finished school (one isn’t done yet with grad school) and is the one in performing arts, lives EXACTLY as your son does…hand to mouth. Also, like your son or anyone in this field, they are always looking for the next gig, while also maintaining bread and butter survival jobs. Like your son, she barely makes ends meet but she does do so and knows she has to do that. Do we ever help with something or do the grandparents? Yes. Grandparents are generous and sometimes give gifts of money with no strings attached. Further, for expenses beyond basic living expenses, such as things to further D’s career, grandparents have helped to finance. For example, my D is recording an original album that is going to be released soon. It costs money to do that and they have helped with that. This is different than supporting living expenses and are more extra type things that she can’t afford that are beyond simply living. They are investments in career builders…such as helping to pay for headshots. But she knows she must earn enough to support herself with living expenses and it is not an option to have parents support her in that way. Do I ever treat her to something? Yes. For example, she doesn’t have extra cash for clothes and when I go see her in a week, to see her perform, I will likely treat her to a new outfit and shoes for one of her shows (gig in a major venue she booked). I am not criticizing parents either who pay for their kids’ living if they can afford to do so. But I can’t afford to do that and I generally believe that once you are an adult, you should be doing what you can to earn a living. </p>

<p>In any case, I agree with your entire post 81.</p>

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<p>I agree with the issue with loan, and I do feel that those who are truly gung ho about a career discipline are taking less risks in borrowing money. However, I also shake my head at those who are justifying heavy borrowing with the subject of study of the student. The attrition rate of engineering majors is very high. I know many,many engineering majors from my generation down to my kids who changed after realizing that the course of study is not for them. So they go to an expensive school with a strong engineering department and by junior realize that they hate the math, physics and engineering course, and/or are not doing well in them. Sometimes they gotta take an extra year when changing gears to another major, and often it is to an area major like Humanities or Social Sciences. So they end up at that expensive school without the engineering degree and the loans that were supposed to be paid for by an engineering job as they end up working low paying jobs at graduation. That is truly more the norm. </p>

<p>Also no field is really secure. There were engineering majors without job offers from some top schools a few years ago. There have been gluts in engineering and the exportation of these jobs to overseas along with competition from internationals willing to take lower pay, many with work experience has eroded the opportunities. You really cannot count on any field generating the income, and so borrowing a lot of money is just not a good idea. You cannot count on the kid getting work to repay it.</p>

<p>My former neighbor’s son lives with her. Him and his girlfriend and 2 kids. The neighbor’s husband left her a few years ago, and the divorce decree has noting in it addressing the $30K in loans the kid took, and the settlement was also affected by another $50K in loans the ex took for the son’s education. He didn’t get a degree–is getting career track certification at a CC right now, and borrowing more money to do it. He was once an aspiring engineering major who academically burned and crashed. His mom feels that had they let him drop the major when he said he so hated it, things would not have gone as far as they did and he just might at least have a degree. </p>

<p>It’s hard enough getting through college working towards your own goals. It really makes it harder when it’s someone else’s ideas. Many of us end up just wanting the kid out of school with the diploma, never mind the major after things go awry. It does not always go smoothly, you know. I wish I could have just pointed to the oldest and said, “Med school”, the second and said, “Lawyer”, the third to an MBA or engineering. I’d love my fourth to be an accountant. I think they would have done well going down those paths, but that is not the way they looked at it. And it’s their lives.</p>

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<p>Ah, Soozie, you make me feel a little better. I feel like he is just scrapping along. He is 100% sufficent, in that he has not ever had to come hat in hand, but he has no extras, none. But he loves the job and each audition is an adventure. I’m not the trooper you are, because, yes, honestly I wish he had more steady work, more reliable sources of income. It makes me very nervous the way he lives. But it would be like caging one of those outdoor birds to insist he take the paths I would have preferred.</p>

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<p>Financially, my D is in the same boat. But so far so good.</p>

<p>The only difference in your statement than my own feelings is that I have no other path I would have preferred. We are happy about the path she chose because this is who she is (I know this is true for your son too of course). I know my husband and I never questioned this path. It has been exciting to watch. But yes, it is a difficult path!!!</p>

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<p>Sometimes letting a young adult (I don’t want to say “child”) pursue a lifelong dream for a few years is not a terrible thing.You are only young and without weighty adult responsibilities for only such a few years of your life. Our children are going to be working for a LOT of years and some opportunities can only be pursued while they are young.</p>

<p>A good friend of one of my son’s always has wanted to play soccer…always an excellent student, went to a great LAC where he continued to play…also continued to play club soccer. An unusual opportunity arose, and he is now under contract to an MLS team. As anyone in the soccer world knows, players in the MLS who are not yet stars don’t make much of a living—and this kid is one of those. But he is spending a couple of years living his dream, knowing it’s more than unlikely that he will ever achieve star status. </p>

<p>He has about two more years of undergrad to complete. But college is not going any where. He plans to finish his undergrad in the next few years, and then head off to medical school for achievement of his other lifetime goal.</p>

<p>But he figured he could only play soccer while he was young, and that he could always finish school, go to med school, and practice medicine for the next 50 years of his life.</p>

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<p>"It’s very hard to gauge what is realistic. People have told my D she is crazy to go to law school. I told her to go for it. She doesn’t want to earn big money in big law. She wants to end the penalty and fight for prisoner’s rights. I <em>did</em> encourage her to attend a public known for public interest law so her debt load would be manageable.</p>

<p>Folks insist there are no jobs for lawyers. Well, there will always be some, and I can’t help but think that a basic requirement will be a law degree."</p>

<p>^^That’s fine, so long as D understands that, after graduation, she may have to pay off law and undergrad debt on the salary of a non-law jobs for which she was qualified before prior to attending law school. There are always some jobs for lawyers, but as municipalities lay off teachers, police officers and fire fighters, you can bet the budget for the PD’s office (and civil legal services) will also be cut (if not gutted), making public interest law jobs hard to come by.</p>

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<p>“Not a single one of these people is unhappy. They’ve taken risks, and some have paid off and some haven’t. But the only one who has any regrets is the lawyer who wasted years trying to make himself into something he wasn’t cut out to be.”</p>

<p>^^ That’s great. Nothing wrong with a bit of parental support to get yourself off the gournd. Certainly one should follow one’s passion (including one with marginal employment or low income), so long as one is willing to accept the lifestyle that that choice supports.</p>

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<p>“Sometimes letting a young adult (I don’t want to say “child”) pursue a lifelong dream for a few years is not a terrible thing.You are only young and without weighty adult responsibilities for only such a few years of your life.”</p>

<p>Also, agree with this. A friends D took off two years before college to dance w/ a professional company in NYC. D went on to Brown and has now completed grad school (UMich); she continues to dance, though not professionally and it really enriches her life. Diff story if D was insisting on career in dance that required constant subsidy from parents.</p>

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<p>I can envision doing that for a young- or mid-twenties daughter even if she’s completely self-sufficient.</p>

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<p>“I think, even if I could I would pay his way, if he truly were not self sufficient in about 3 -5 years, even if he were working hard and doing all or the right things, I would schedule slowly withdrawing monetary support and shifting him to his own. But if he wants to live the way he is, for the rest of his life, on his own earnings, it isn’t for me to say”</p>

<p>^^^ You hit the nail on the head (though I would probably begin w/drawing support after 2-3 years). And I would never force a child into a career path (as in sooz’s post about the Asian musician pushed into law school.)</p>

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<p>^^Just to be clear, it was cptofthehouse who told the story of the Asian musician pushed into law school, not me. </p>

<p>Anyway, I can’t afford to support my kids when not in school. I already am paying back loans I took to support them in school. But I think it is best for all kids to expect them to support themselves as adults and then if in the first few years they are struggling and the parents can afford to help, then do so. But bankrolling them for a few years with no expectation that they are to try to support themselves, I’m not truly into.</p>

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<p>I just joined the thread, but I saw the post noting Bill Gates dropping out etc. etc. “and look what he became”; but I thought I understood his mom was super supportive from earliest age pushing him towards success, competition, opportunity and I thought his dad was a major factor as a lawyer supporting his (Bill Gates’) business ambitions/interests. Not everyone has all those consistent support factors and they likely made a big difference aside from his I.Q.</p>

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<p>I truly believe in discussing job market way before kids envision their career path. As an example, talking to an 8th grader who is inspired to become marine biologist about job market for this profession (close to none) might steer them into thinking about something that will allow them to be self-sufficient. With my S., I did not have to do it. As an inspired passionate artist who has been taking private art lessons and pursue other means of learning as much as he could and acquire as many art skills as he could while in HS, he researched himself and discovered that his passion can lead to successful career in Graphic Design (which has happened). He knew that he cannot support himself selling his art (very few could, even most internationally known artists have some teaching positions). Somehow he has learned about it without internet (did not exist) while in 8th grade.
Well, it was a different story with my D., who also in 8th grade expressed desire to become a marine biologist. After talking for several years (peaceful non-confrontational exchage can take that long), she switched her focus to MD and starting Med. School in few weeks. She had tons of other interests and pursued Music Minor in UG, while giving up some other passions because of time commitments to everything else.<br>
Young people are full of passions and interests that sound romantic and attractive. It is up to parents to open their eyes to reality when they are not doing it on their own. We can exist in imaginary rosy world, however, somebody has to support our lives, and it is better be ourselves.
However, sometime it does take time to find a first place of employment as well as the next one if you loose it. Family should be there for support as long as person shows fair efforts to find a job (any job for that matter. I have been un-employed 9 times, I fully undestand what this means).</p>

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<p>D is about to wrap up grad school in music this spring. She currently is turning down more work in her field than she can take. She is performing professionally, has two jobs teaching music in private high schools and also teaches privately. She grew up with two parent with degrees in the arts(H in film and myself in visual arts) and in a neighborhood (in L.A.) with friends whose parents are musicians, film production people and visual artists. She saw the work in the arts is never secure but it is incredibly rewarding in other ways. And that the harder she worked, the luckier she would get. When she was admitted to all four of the grad schools she applied to the choice was based on teaching quality, money, work opportunities, money and then work opportunities. Her goals have been firmly grounded in working in the arts, not on some delusional fantasy of the arts. She has been self sufficient thru grad school, now has only $5000 in student loans to deal with. When she graduates this spring, it’s off to Europe for a professional gig, a music festival, and a series of auditions…all of her expenses paid by grants and a generous donation from a patron of the arts. She found this support on her own by calling, networking and performing.
All through the last three years in this bad ecomomy she has worked her tush off but has never had to work outside her field. Strangely enough, out of all her friends who graduated in the sciences, business and the liberal arts—she is getting the most work. I don’t think it has much to do with her chosen major as much as it has to do with her focus, will, and hard work. You can sit on the couch with a business degree or a music degree…it’s all up to you.</p>