<p>Jenskate and chocoholic, thank you. I agree with both of you. My daughter has never used substances and had vowed to abstain. Ironically, she recently also mentioned that she was concerned that she would be pressured to party and would be unable to escape that living in dorms. Mind you, I actually believe that she does not want to do these things. But that she does not trust her own resolve away from the safety zone of us and the community that she has been raised in. I don’t think that she trusts herself to adhere to her values outside of her “safety zone”. </p>
<p>While advising her, I think that my honestly demonstrated that I am not really sure of the “correctness” of my own values. I stated that I wish that I and my husband had been virgins on our wedding day, and that I think it would be wonderful for her. I also told her that I believe that premarital sex can be ok between two people who love one another, because there are really no guarantees in life. Marriages fail too. So I am not sure that I gave her a plan to adhere to her goals. I think that I was wishy-washy, and that is why I came here to see if there is another way to support her.</p>
<p>Ok mom, here it is. This is coming from just the wrong kind of guy.</p>
<p>Tell your daughter not to lead guys on. If she doesn’t want to have sex before marriage, it needs to be one of the first things she tells any serious pursuers. I’m not kidding. Guys who just want to get laid will look elsewhere (there’s no shortage of easy ladies on college campuses), whereas guys who either (a) respect her decision or (b) are really, really desperate for <em>her</em> will continue to date her. If she gets an (a), all’s right with the world. If she gets a (b), she either caves due to constant pressure or (b) eventually leaves (or kills her).</p>
<p>That’s it in a nutshell. Tell her to take care of her own problems. She’s a big girl and mommy won’t always be able to protect her from big scary men.</p>
<p>To the recent posters, I think that you are correct in saying “Don’t you think that she picked the perfect guy”. Absolutely correct. I don’t think that she “fell for him” as much as she decided that he was “appropriate” to her goals of being safe. I think that if he actually dated her, she would snap under the pressure of trying to be as perfect as she thinks she should be. And ironically, the only other boy that she had a crush on before this one did turn out to be gay. And I have suggested to her that she seems to be attracted to unavailable boys. </p>
<p>And when it comes right down to it, until recently, she turned her head and acted appalled when we watched any movie that showed couples fooling around. This is pretty common in R rated movies. And we have to tell her when the scene is over. One day, I said to her “Why the heck do you want a boyfriend? What the heck do you think they are going to expect?” </p>
<p>On the one hand, she has stated that she is very upset at the idea of “leaving him” to go to college. She thinks that she is going to “lose him”. I have reassured her that there is no reason why their friendship would not survive. She also worries that something will happen in our family while she is gone. At the same time, she knows that the schools that she is considering are best for her, even if far away. She wants to be accepted into these schools and is excited. It’s like a rollercoaster of emotions!!!</p>
<p>Why is your daughter concerned with this stuff while she’s still in high school? Honestly, if you start expending a lot of mental energy on relationships and sex, you’re going to have a higher chance of getting involved in that stuff. Plain and simple. She’s in high school! She can afford to ignore that stuff for the time being and focus on the more important aspects of college that await her–like academics, extracurricular activities, and finding out who she is as a person. This all comes before losing virginity, getting a boyfriend, etc. Speaking of which, I think it’s time to move on from the guy friend as a potential boyfriend. It seems pretty clear that he doesn’t want to go out with her (which, I admit, does suck.) But they’re just in high school for pete’s sake. Pining away for months??? No wonder he’s been scared into missionary work…talk about pressure. Talk some sense into her, mom! You seem pretty sensible and she’s already on the right track with her values (abstaining from substances, thinking before having sex). Reinforce those values and don’t let her give in to relationship pressures.</p>
<p>You know, I don’t even know how things will be with my son in another 10 years when I am going through this college stuff again. He’s a whole different deck of cards. My husband was the boy that you wanted to keep away from your daughter, and the boy that your daughter could not stay away from…</p>
<p>Maybe your daughter doesn’t really know what her “values” are in terms of issues like premarital sex – and what she really needs to know from you is that it is o.k. and that it is normal for her to explore and change during the college years. We are not talking about hard core “values” that everyone agrees on, such as the fact that lying and cheating and stealing are wrong – we’re talking about issues where even you and your husband feel conflicted.</p>
<p>I think because of your own history and personal experience you have the concept of unwanted pregnancy confused with the idea of a “value” – those are two different things. When my d. was a very young teen she told me she wanted to stay a virgin until marriage and that she did not plan to marry until she was in her 20’s – but I knew that was a reflection of her immaturity, not her values. Not that wanting to be a virgin is necessarily immature – just that it is an easy thing to say at an age when the person has not yet experienced the emotional pull of being in a relationship. I knew that when my d. was older and dating, she might feel differently. So we talked about the what level of intimacy I thought was appropriate at her age, and we talked about the importance of their being love and respect in a relationship. </p>
<p>I knew when she became seriously involved with a boy at age 16 where the relationship was heading – I could see it in the way the two interacted just sitting across the table from me in a restaurant. They lived in a world where all they saw was each other. So I brought up the subject of birth control with my d.; she told me that she & her bf were nowhere near having sex; I said I understood that but I just wanted her to know about her options if things ever changed. </p>
<p>Your daughter has at this point only experienced a crush on a boy who won’t reciprocate, because he is not drawn to her. (I also suspect that he may be gay – a very religious boy would tend to be in denial and so very likely would not yet have come to terms with those feelings, so a discussion with your d. may not be very helpful.). </p>
<p>I think your d. is asking something different than what you heard. I think she is realizing that she would like a deeper relationship with a boy who will reciprocate, and she wants to know whether you will be disappointed if that leads to sex. Since you are not a deeply religious person, I think you should try to listen to your d. and let her know that it is o.k. to feel conflicted, and that part of the college experience will be to make the choices she feels most comfortable with. And try to get a handle yourself to sort out the “values” issue from the practical, fear-of-pregnancy issue. If you keep viewing it as a “values” issue then you put your daughter in the position of potentially feeling shame or guilt over what are very normal thoughts and desires. And it may be that what she really needs from you is help on sorting out the circumstances in which sex will be o.k. for her… which may or may not entail marriage.</p>
<p>Dukie, I appreciate what you are saying, and I totally agree that she needs to know who she is before she is fit to know who is right for her. And I’ve told her this, that the most important thing is that she be able to take care of herself, which means focusing on her education. But I understand that it is hard for her to be a senior in high school and know that her cousins and friends of the same age all had a boyfriend years ago, and she has not. </p>
<p>I am laughing about the boy being scared into missionary work, but I really don’t think so.</p>
<p>to the OP: apologies for being harsh in my first post. i was just thinking/writing out loud and i didnt reread until i posted, and some of the things i <em>meant</em> didnt really come through. </p>
<p>reading about your situation with your husband and your daughter’s birth, i realize i didnt really know anything about you or your situation when i made those judgments. i do stand by my original sentiment that purity organizations are sketch. </p>
<p>i could offer further opinions, but i have a feeling that my viewpoint will not be particularly appreciated in this thread. hey, ithacaiscold, we should make a new thread where people have to send us SAT, GPA, and class rank, and then ask us questions, and we can answer them dear abby style, based on their stats.</p>
<p>a couple of things - one, my first inclination was to wonder whether the boy is gay. It could possibly explain several things: his total disinterest in girls (even those with whom he shares the same values), and his insistence on going to a religious college (let me explain). Some young adults, as they begin questioning their sexuality, try to deny that they are homosexual in an attempt to protect themselves from what could obviously be a very difficult lifestyle. So they remain in denial, and make choices that protect them from facing their sexuality (like picking a school that prescribes abstinence). I have to wonder if their going to homecoming together was an attempt on his part to ‘prove’ to himself he prefers girls, when in reality, he does not. It’s a front. By putting himself into an environment where others will fully support his chastity, he is creating a shield of sorts from temptations. Also, if he has any suspicions that he might be gay, he may still believe that being homosexual is a choice and not innate. Therefore, he surrounds himself with others who also subscribe to that thinking, with hopes that he can be cured. There just seems to be something in the way you have repeatedly described this boy, that makes me wonder about his sexuality.</p>
<p>Of course, I could be totally off-base, and if so, then here comes scenario number two, that your daughter might not be familiar with. She shouldn’t be so convinced he will graduate college a virgin. It’s not unusual at all for students who attend similar, conservative colleges to marry young. It satisfies both their desire to have sex, with their goal to remain a virgin until they’re married. We’ve known several girls, who are very fundamentalist Christians, who attend very, very conservative colleges, who meet ‘the one’ when they’re freshman or sophomores, and don’t want to wait til they graduate to have sex, so therefore they choose to get married young. It really is not uncommon, and if this young man is truly hetersexual, he may find someone in college and get married before graduation.</p>
<p>one thing I’m seeing is the need for some of you folks for therapy… The choice to have or not have sex is not the divining rod for a good person… Jeese louise, your chastity does not make you a better or worse person. As I read these posts I started to see some are placing such importance on an unused sexual organ… I mean really, if the boy that marries your daugther is willing to do so ONLY if she is a virgin… really a good man? </p>
<p>the poster writes about finding someone later… well you weren’t a virgin then and you found a great guy later didn’t you… </p>
<p>Isn’t it far more important for your children to find someone who cares, loves and understands them and lets the past be the past? honestly what a low standard virginity is on the scale of what makes a person… If that really honestly stops someone from wanting to spend their life with you… do you really want that type of person? Is it a sure fire guarantee of a good man? </p>
<p>I’m not saying your daughter has to do anything, it is entirely her choice. I would leave it I will respect your choice what ever it is. I will love you no matter what and I hope if you do decide to make love with someone it is someone you really care about and take the proper percautions…</p>
<p>What I have found over the years are those who are so obsessed with things like this have alot of issues and really do need some help. Think about it, your crotch is not what makes or breaks you. This whole post seems to be preoccupied with something that isn’t all that valuable in all honesty. A great person will forget your past, not rub it in your face… think about it.</p>
<p>i go to a big public state school. i am not a virgin. i do not regret my decision and am having a quite enjoyable social life in college. i know many like-minded boys (no surprises there).</p>
<p>my roommate is a virgin. she plans to remain a virgin until she gets married for non-religious reasons. she’s open to dating, but doesn’t date that much. she’s open to partying, but does so responsibly. she didn’t drink hardly at all in high school but has begun to drink more in college. she has managed to retain her virginity in spite of what she does and what parties she goes to. i know many like-minded guys (can think of 3 on my floor alone) that plan to wait until marriage for non-religious reasons. they are nice, normal guys and 2 of them have girlfriends that respect their decision to wait.</p>
<p>the cool thing about college is that there are so many different kinds of people. i’ve only been here for a semester and have met kids of all different races, backgrounds, financial statuses, sexual orientations, and intelligence levels. if she wants to remain a virgin, it’s completely her choice. by the time she gets to college, no one besides her will really care (meaning that they won’t ostracize her and try to pressure her into sex). obviously there are the exceptions–the jerk guys that take advantage of girls, for example–but i find those to be few and far between.</p>
<p>rather than talking to her about how to keep her virginity, i would tell her to explore what types of friends she is most comfortable around. when she knows what type of group she’s looking for, she will have more success creating a circle of friends that will respect her decision to wait. if she’s surrounded by the right people, her choice will have very little impact on her college experience. her decision will probably even be a non-issue: for example, a friend of mine is gay and had a very hard time being comfortable as a gay guy during high school (perhaps like your daughter, being a virgin and uncomfortable with the fact that it will make her life difficult) but once he found a group of accepting friends–girls (myself included), guys, and other gay guys–he’s absolutely excelled. i can honestly say that i don’t even care that he’s gay.</p>
<p>obviously, gay does not equal virgin, but i’m assuming you understand my metaphor.</p>
<p>a solid social circle is key to her success. she will be FINE…i promise! good for you for having such a close relationship–it’s rare among families these days!</p>
<p>I went through a really hardcore fundamentalist Christian phase in high school (I am a male). This was really unfortunate for me in terms of my sexual tendencies 'cause it compounded a shyness I already had. I had several girls sort of throw themselves at me and in retrospect it would have been nice to have one of them as a girlfriend. But I stuck to the things that other people have been pointing out: 1) I thought I would want to wait for marriage (ha!); 2) I wanted to be with someone who shared my faith. These are really important drivers of behavior for someone who is religious. And they tend to lead to repression. So this guy may actually have really strong feelings for your daughter but be unwilling to express them. Whoever said that he’s not going to want to be with your unreligious daughter hit it square on the nose.</p>
<p>I don’t want to go into a big diatribe, but are you sure you haven’t transmitted some neurotic fears to your daughter about her sexuality? I am not trying to be critical or judgemental here at all. But there are two things about repression which can really backfire on someone who represses 1) it tends to lead to naive actions. The repressed person who shuts off that part of themselves actually turns out to be more likely to make a stupid mistake in an unguarded moment, one that can involve choosing a wrong partner or even in worst cases putting themselves in situations that are risky. 2) Repression can often eventually lead to a strong counter-reaction. Freud said something to the effect: “The repressed id comes back to haunt as something much more terrifying.” </p>
<p>Maybe you can continue a discussion with your daughter and tell her those urges are natural and that the important thing is for her to make sure she’s ready and to make sure she chooses her partner/s carefully.</p>
<p>An illustration of what I am talking about with respect to bad choices. I had a girlfriend in grad school. When we first started going out – she really pursued me and eventually I relented – I couldn’t understand some of her weird behavior. Finally, it became clear: she was a virgin more than halfway through her 20s and this was astounding because she was a gorgeous woman. She and I became an item and eventually she was no longer a virgin. After we broke up, she kind of exploded in terms of sexual interest – and quite quickly contracted vaginal Herpes (she confessed tearfully to me a few months later). She was just plain naive, and I honestly think she made a stupid mistake (and mostly was incredibly unlucky) that I felt she would’ve been more likely to avoid had she been more experienced.</p>
<p>I just wanted to point out that sometimes experience, framed right, is actually much safer than naivete borne of abstinence or repression.</p>
<p>I have no idea if any of these notions apply in this case. And you do sound like a committed and wonderful mother. I just want to help make doubly sure that fear doesn’t beget an ironic result.</p>
<p>Opie, while I appreciate your comments, I think that you simplify something very complex. Virginity is a very big deal in some cultures. My upbringing was traditional Italian Catholic . When I got pregnant out-of-wedlock, my grandmother asked me how many times I had had sex and why had I not thought of her and my religion. She then told me that I might as well throw myself out of a window because “nobody will buy the cow now that you gave the milk away”. Now sure, I did eventually marry someone, but I cannot honestly say that I approve of his upbringing either. He was raised by a single mother who conceived him by adultery and in a family with a “boys will be boys” attitude. Consequently, I don’t think that the boys in his family placed any more importance on sex than on going to the bathroom. </p>
<p>Another thing is the fact that because of my life experience, I am tough as nails compared to my daughter. While I am proud of what I have done with my life despite my growing pains, I do not think that my daughter needs those same pains to have a good life. </p>
<p>As to the other posts regarding the young man and the possibility that he is gay. My daughter and I have actually discussed this possibility. Back in middle school, my daughter came home and told me that the religious boy’s best friend had ended their friendship and called him “mediocre”. A few years later, the boy came out as being gay. I believe that the gay friend could not abide a friend who adhered to a religion that considered homosexuality to be wrong. My daughter has maintained a friendship with both boys. And the gay boy has told my daughter that he thinks that the religious boy is gay and is waiting for him to come out of the closet. Now I don’t know what he bases that belief on. Maybe the friendship ended for reasons that we do not know. Or maybe he just says that to be nasty because he felt rejected by his friend over religion. It would almost be better if he were gay. My daughter originally had a crush on the gay friend. It was hard when she found out that he is gay, but she moved on…</p>
<p>Your daughter seems to have an extremely unusual attitude toward sex for someone her age. I was especially struck by your comment that she turns away during any intimate moments on movies. Are you sure that her reaction is genuine and is not more embarrassment at seeing romantic moments with her parents or simply habit? I don’t have any good advice because I really feel stumped on this one. Did she go through puberty at a normal age? Is she immature in other ways? </p>
<p>I am afraid for your daughter in college. I am afraid that the culture shock will be more than she can handle; I am afraid that being away from home will cause her a lot of stress; I am afraid that she will have trouble finding like-minded friends; and I am afraid that she sees herself as so weak that she would have sex without really wanting to, though I can’t imagine how someone who hides their eyes when a couple makes out would even be able to begin to have sexual contact with someone. Remember that college students tend to be more open about their relationships and sexuality than other age groups; if she goes to a party on campus, she will likely see couples making out and grinding against walls. How would your daughter react to that situation or handle it? </p>
<p>Do you or your daughter think that she would benefit from therapy? It’s not something I always suggest, but since you say these are your daughter’s legitimate concerns, and since they show sexual and social development that strike me as unusual, it’s something that I think you and your daughter should consider. Why is she so weakly willed? What can she do to become a stronger woman? Why is she so turned off by sexual situations? Is this age or something else? Why does she seem to get attached to guys she cannot have? How is she going to handle the stresses and pressures of college life? Etc. </p>
<p>Do you think that she would benefit from taking a gap year? Taking a year to work, volunteer, take classes locally, or travel may help her grow up, mature, and become more independent and savvy. </p>
<p>I am worried about the thought of her going off to college next year. It’s not just that she’s weak-willed or just that she’s sexually and socially immature; it’s the combination of the two that worries me. A student who does not want to have sex and is not interested in sex but has the power and confidence to stand by her feelings and opinions in a calm, non-judgmental, and self-assured way will be able to handle college. </p>
<p>I’m more nervous by the combination of things you’ve said about your daughter than I am about whether she’ll find a boyfriend at college who will wait to have sex or any of your other questions.</p>
<p>corranged, I think you are reading the situation too literally, based on what the mom reports. I don’t see a teenager who wants to remain a virgin – I see a teenager who very much wants to have a boyfriend and is starting to realize that maybe her ideas about true love and virginity are naive. So she’s thinking about college and dating and the possibility of sex, and feeling her way with her mom to gauge her reaction.</p>
<p>I mean, I knew when my daughter was 14 or so and came to me with questions about what “a friend” was doing (was it ok for the “friend” to be with a boy and french-kiss?) – that she was asking about herself, not the friend she was “concerned” about. It’s a lot easier for a 17 year old to tell mom, “I’m afraid I might get tempted and do X”… than come out and say that she expects she will do those things because she wants to. </p>
<p>Here’s the quote from the opening post:
I read that as a statement: “I realize I’ve been naive and maybe I would be more likely to find a boyfriend if I wasn’t such a prude; what do you think?” </p>
<p>I went back over all the posts and I don’t see any indication that the d. is sure or strongly believes at this point that she wants to maintain virginity in college – that seems to be what the mom thinks, not what the d. says. </p>
<p>I honestly think that right now the d. is going through a normal process of maturation and questioning her previously-held assumptions, and she’s trying to get a feel for how her mom will feel or react to such changes – and that’s probably not so much out of a desire for guidance but just for a sense for the future as to what will be safe to confide and what she should keep to herself.</p>
<p>I mean, that’s what teenagers do. It’s what I did as a kid and what my kids did with me. They send out little feelers and if their parents freak out – then the conversation stops. </p>
<p>I mean, by the time my own daughter would start those conversations with me… she had already done whatever it was she was pretending to be thinking about doing. I’m not saying that Whatapainthisis’ daughter is that far along – but I don’t buy the idea that she is all that afraid of peer pressure, either – it’s just that framing the conversation in that way is a safe and easy approach.</p>
<p>I could be completely off-base, but it was this combination that really struck me:
When I see these things added up, I see a girl who may not be ready to go away to a large, state college and deal with college life on her own. Maybe she needs a few sessions with a counselor to talk about how she’s going to deal with the adjustment to college, including how to empower herself to make her own decisions. I don’t like the thought of a super inexperienced, reserved, dependent, and weak-willed girl going off to school and just hoping for the best.</p>
<p>I’d be tremendously more concerned about birth control than whether this disintrested boy will still be there in four years. Your daughter needs to know that she does have the power to prevent pregnancy. The fact that other women in the family had accidental pregnancies does not mean she will follow in their footsteps. She seems to want to communicate with you which is a great thing, but rather than wondering about this boy, why not ask her what her plans are for birth control if she decides to no longer be virginal?</p>
<p>I know a number of senior boys who have never dated; great kids, painfully shy and intimidated by girls, even when it’s been made known that an interest is there. Things tend to work themselves out in college. It doesn’t mean they’re gay or haven’t hit puberty yet.</p>
<p>This is a very practical and wise step. Although at many colleges condoms are provided free in bowls placed throughout the dorms. Then as your daughter experiences college and dating, she is prepared if her decision is to have intercourse.</p>
<p>I completely agree that if she is committed to “no sex,” that needs to be made very clear in her dating from the beginning by all of her words, deeds and appearance.</p>
<p>If, as some posts indicate, your daughter is not completely sure that “no sex” is something she will maintain, she needs to be particularly careful not to give off “yes” vibes unless and until she is sure she is available for sex.</p>