Virginity and Going Away To College

ebeeeee · December 4, 2007, 11:29am

I’m coming late to this post but fascinated by all of the responses. I am soo impressed by the students who posted and their clear eyed views. Kids make this stuff a LOT less complicated than we parents do.
Quicksilver…bless you for your honesty. As the parent of a 19 year old son and a 16 year old daughter I have seen what you mention time and time again. Girls who have been leading guys on and then act surprised. Many years ago I chaperoned a bunch of 13 year old girl scouts on a cruise. After watching them flirt ridiculously with the adult male crew members I took them aside and told them “don’t promise something you won’t deliver”. The Moms looked shocked but the kids got it right away. They aren’t stupid.

The OP’s daughter has a great, open relationship with her Mom. Not everyone wants to discuss these issues with their mother (mine don’t) but I am open to anything they bring to me.

I have not discussed his sex life or lack of? with my son. He has been away at school for two years. He is a bright kid who was raised right. I trust him to make his own decisions and to come to me if he wants or needs.

As far as the OP’s daughter and her male friend, his sexuality is none of anyone’s business but his. Obviously he allows her a safe zone…when she is ready to date and open to people, someone will come along.

quicksilver40133 · December 4, 2007, 11:44am

Look, send her to school and let her make her own choices. It sounds like she’s been babied long enough. She’ll either choose to abstain, choose to give in, or have some jerk force himself on her (rape). The third one is just something you have to accept… it could happen anywhere, anytime. In the other two… well, it’s her life and she has to start making choices, and if she makes one she regrets, she can join the club and I’ll mail her a membership card myself.

Northstarmom · December 4, 2007, 11:47am

“Today we had a discussion about her virginity. She stated that she believes Ithat she is pipe dreaming about ever being with her friend. She is attractive, and I am pretty sure that there will be pursuers in college. She has now started expressing that she is concerned that she will give up her virginity in college. She is not sure that it is realistic that she will find someone compatible who will agree to wait for marriage, given that she is not religious. I have not yet seen any “purity” organizations that are non-religious.”

I think it’s wonderful that you and your D have such a close relationship that she can discuss her sexual concerns with you. I had that kind of relationship with my mom when I was in high school (and also was similar to your D in that at that age, I had plans to be a virgin until marriage), and my mother’s openness to discussing such things with me helped me to be very responsible about sex when I did become sexually active.

To me, it sounds like there’s a good chance that the young man isn’t romantically interested in your D and will never be. This may have little to do with her religious preferences. There are a couple of girls who are close friends of my S and have been romantically interested in him for years, and even have gone to some formals with him, but while he likes them, he likes them as friends, not romantic partners. Sometimes that’s just the way it is, and at some point, the girls move on to find romantic partners who care about them in a romantic way.

Anyway, most people change so much between their teens and early 20s that people who may have initially been well suited to them are no longer good matches for them by the time they are 24 or so. This particularly is true of people who go to college because of the wealth of new experiences that they get in colleges – new experiences that help them develop aspects of themselves that they may not have attended to before.

I don’t know why your D would need to be in any organization that pledges to be virgins until marriage. If that is her choice, then she would not need an organizational affiliation to follow her beliefs.

I agree with what Jenskate1 wrote: “What she wants at 17 might not be what she wants at 20 or 27. I know many people who changed their mind on this issue. She shouldn’t have to feel like a failure if she does.”

Check out this research:
"The vast majority of Americans have sex before marriage, including those who abstained from sex during their teenage years, according to Trends in Premarital Sex in the United States, 19542003, by Lawrence B. Finer, published in the January/February 2007 issue of Public Health Reports. Further, contrary to the public perception that premarital sex is much more common now than in the past, the study shows that even among women who were born in the 1940s, nearly nine in 10 had sex before marriage.

The new study uses data from several rounds of the federal National Survey of Family Growth to examine sexual behavior before marriage, and how it has changed over time. According to the analysis, by age 44, 99% of respondents had had sex, and 95% had done so before marriage. Even among those who abstained from sex until age 20 or older, 81% had had premarital sex by age 44."
[Premarital</a> Sex Is Nearly Universal Among Americans, And Has Been For Decades](<a href=“http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2006/12/19/index.html]Premarital”>Premarital Sex Is Nearly Universal Among Americans, And Has Been For Decades | Guttmacher Institute)

Consequently, I think that as a parent, you could make sure that she knows about how to use and obtain birth control (something that she’ll need to know even if she chooses not to have sex until marriage), how to make good decisions about choosing a romantic partner, and how to avoid situations that may lead to unwanted sex (i.e. avoiding heavy drinking, etc.), and how to realize that sex is for most people an important and fulfilling part of a loving relationship (even if those people confine the sex to a loving, married relationship). Sometimes parents emphasize so much the cautions about sex that they forget to provide information about the good aspects of sex.

Also, realize that there probably will come a time in which your D will stop talking to you about her sexual concerns. If that happens, it probably will reflect her age and maturity about looking into her own heart about her sexual decisions, and that will simply mean that she’s becoming a full adult who is taking responsibility for her own life. It won’t mean that you’ve failed her or she’s rejecting you.

Northstarmom · December 4, 2007, 11:57am

“Maybe parents should just pack some condoms in their kids’ bag as they send them off to college…”

I know that many people think the above will solve all problems, but I disagree.

I think that the best things that we can send our kids away with are: self knowledge that allows them to make thoughtful decisions about their lives, including sex; knowledge about sex, birth control, and sexual fulfillment, including valuing sex as more than something that one does for animal release.

Sending kids to college with condoms is not any guarantee that they’ll use them. IMO if one sends one’s offspring to college with what I suggest, they will have the maturity to be able to obtain and correctly use birth control if they choose to become sexually active.

I write from the perspective of someone whose mother was very open with me about sexual issues. WHen I went to college, I planned to be a virgin until marriage. However, as is the case with most people in the U.S., I ended up choosing to have sex before marriage. However, I always used reliable birth control, and my two pregnancies were planned, and were within my marriage.

I am glad that I didn’t wait to have sex until I got married at age 28. I think that kind of decision is a very personal one that depends on the people involved. I know people who waited and people who didn’t. I have seen long, good marriages result in both situations.

I also have seen naive virgins get into marriages that ended up being very bad – marriages that they may have avoided if they had had some sexual experience. Example: Woman who married a man who virtually any non naive person could tell was homosexual.

Of course, I also have seen promiscuous people get into bad marriages because they thought that good sex= a good marriage partner.

Opie_ofMaybery2 · December 4, 2007, 12:06pm

To the poster, I am sorry your grandmother put the hex on you, but… you can either nip that in the bud or continue that aspect of shame onto your daughter. Personally, I think you may have already. How did you feel when your grandmother laid that on you? was it worth it to pass that to your daughter?

You’ve proved your grandmother wrong by finding the “right” guy for you later on… why perpetuate her views into your child?

I mean, I am not saying your D needs to go out and get busy, but I also see her behavior as a bit unhealthy, repressive. Her great grandmother is striking from beyond… Can you see where you are adding additional baggage to your daughter? Is your daughter also the one born out of wedlock? Are you sending a message to her about her worth?

I’m sorry and I guess I am sounding mean and I apologize, but you appear to be passing wrongs down the line, when does it stop?

If your daugther chose to have premaritial sex, would you treat her the same way your grandmother treated you?

jessiehl · December 4, 2007, 12:18pm

It can, but it’s not that simple. A naive, unworldly girl can stumble unintentionally into a dangerous situation, not seeing the red flags that a more worldly girl would notice right away. I was a naive, unworldly girl in this regard, and I can remember at least one situation that I nearly walked into on an overnight school trip (I was 12 or 13) that was obviously dangerous in retrospect. Ironically, it was being shy and socially awkward that saved me - I felt too shy to go to the hotel room of a boy I had just met half an hour ago to socialize. Looking back on it, the situation was just PACKED with red flags (nice-seeming high school junior who struck up a conversation with me on the sidelines of a dance involving students from many schools, invited me to come back to his hotel room “to hang out” and drink with him and his friends) but I was too naive to recognize any of them. I thought he was just being kind. And maybe he was, but in retrospect I wouldn’t bet any money on his good intentions.

This is why I suggest that the OP’s daughter needs some basic safety training. If she’s shy and socially and romantically underexperienced, she needs to know how to recognize danger signs and sketchy situations.

Another thing that I learned, around the same time, was that a major reason that I was not a target of the egregious sexual harassment/assault that happened in some parts of the school building, was that I had made it clear that I could and would fight back. Nothing you do will protect against all possible cases, but self-defense - not just fighting techniques, but situational awareness, learning how to carry yourself so that you look less like a potential victim, and the increase in assertiveness that often goes along with learning self-defense - can be really useful.

mstee · December 4, 2007, 12:40pm

My take on this is similar to Calmom’s (post 37). I get the impression that the young lady, infatuated with this religious young man, adopted his values, but now that she is finally thinking about cutting that cord, she is not so sure about waiting for marriage to have sex.

I would reassure her that she can start to date without giving in to pressure. She should take her time, get to know any boy she is interested in well before trying anything physical – she should date boys that will let her set the pace. No need to rush in to anything. She should feel okay about taking her time, being friends with guys first before trying anything physical.

Nothing wrong with saying, let’s be friends for awhile first, until we get to know each other better.

If I were her mom, I would tell her that what I would wish for her is that her first sexual experience be a good one, with someone who cares about her. If that ends up happening before she is married, it is okay. And if she ends up deciding to wait until her wedding night, that is okay too. It should totally be her decision about when, how and who. And BTW, it will be a lot easier to make those decisions if one is not drinking heavily. And yes, be responsible and use birth control!

Just my two cents . . .

hazelb · December 4, 2007, 12:41pm

Wow - this has been one of the most interesting parent discussions I’ve ever seen. The range of responses is probably very close to the range of emotions most kids feel when they’re trying to navigate intimate relationships in college.

I do think it’s worth separating out the relevant issues. For instance, whatever the sexuality proclivity or maturity of your daughter’s big crush, the fact is he’s not available to her. It doesn’t really matter what the reason is and it’s not really fair to speculate on the why - but it’s clear he’s not interested in being her boyfriend.

What is more important is why she picked someone who doesn’t return her feelings. It probably means something and it’s probably worth her while to gain the insight she needs to let him go. Perhaps it even says something about her not being really ready for a relationship - she picked someone who was safely out-of-bounds and wouldn’t pressure her.

Secondly (and personally,) I question the concept that virginity is something to be “awarded” to another person. That’s what unnerves me about the concept of holding onto one’s virginity and handing it over on the wedding night. I don’t think it should be about the other person – I think it should be about your daughter and how she feels about herself.

Given the amount of conversation she’s having with you is 1/10 of the thinking she’s been doing inside, it’s evident she’s having typically strong teenage feelings about sex and romance and love and trying to make sense of those feelings along with her own moral code. Which, from what you’ve said, is not guided by an orthodox set of religious beliefs as much as personal values.

So, to your daughter, you say, welcome to adulthood, dear. These are typical questions to wrestle with. And because she’s still growing and changing and about to be living at college with a new peer group, it’s unlikely she’s going to come to a resolution that is etched in stone.

I think it’s really important to support her. To tell her that everyone her age is wrestling with the same thing. There are no absolute right or wrong answers, no one-size-fits all solutions. You want to give her confidence in her ability to take care of herself and make good judgments because, in all reality, you can’t predict what kind of situations she will find herself in once she gets to college.

While I appreciate how much your youthful mistake cost you, the fact is that was your life and not your daughter’s. She’s got to be free to figure it out herself - including making her own mistakes - knowing you stand behind her and that there is nothing she can’t bounce back from.

Which means making sure she’s sufficiently informed about birth control. Even if you don’t send her to college equipped, she should be comfortable enough with all the options to go to the health center or local doctor if she needs to.

Also, some of the same kids who believe in chastity until marriage believe they can do any kind of sexual play except for penetration and it doesn’t count because they are still “technically” virgins. But that sex play still provides the potential for the spread of disease. Part of her sex education needs to be about all the options - not just intercourse - and the impact they can have on her.

Basically, I think when you focus on her self-respect and her right to control her own body, you are giving her the skills to say no if she wants to say no and say yes with the kind of physical and emotional protection to own her decision.

I had two children who went to college as virgins. That changed for one during freshman year and the other during sophomore year. Each has had two long-term relationships since (two years duration each.) I see them taking responsibility for birth control, their own feelings and their partners’ feelings. They are monogamous, committed relationships and whether they end in marriage or not, I feel my children are learning how to work at a relationship.

My youngest had a very serious relationship in high school. They were deeply attached, deeply in love, and a joy to be around. Even though we never left them alone in the house, it was easy to see how much physical attraction there was between the two of them. We had numerous conversations with our child about being too young. I even called Planned Parenthood to get advice on how to handle these conversations.

But after they went to college (and broke up because they weren’t going to be in the same state,) I found out they had been intimate. The explanation was that they both wanted to lose their virginity to someone they really loved. They didn’t want to go to college and have their first times be some random, drunken hook-up. They wanted it to mean something and they knew how much they meant to each other. It was a very deliberate, mutually arrived-at decision.

I wasn’t happy to hear about it after the fact but I think that most kids will eventually make these decisions for themselves, no matter how much advice we give. Only time will tell if my daughter made the right decision for herself but they used protection and they talked everything out together. That’s what I hope for all her future relationships and marriage so even though I’m not thrilled that this happened for her at such a young age, I think she handled it in a responsible, thoughtful way.

SherBear · December 4, 2007, 12:46pm

a couple of things - one, my first inclination was to wonder whether the boy is gay. It could possibly explain several things: his total disinterest in girls (even those with whom he shares the same values), and his insistence on going to a religious college (let me explain). Some young adults, as they begin questioning their sexuality, try to deny that they are homosexual in an attempt to protect themselves from what could obviously be a very difficult lifestyle. So they remain in denial, and make choices that protect them from facing their sexuality (like picking a school that prescribes abstinence). I have to wonder if their going to homecoming together was an attempt on his part to ‘prove’ to himself he prefers girls, when in reality, he does not. It’s a front. By putting himself into an environment where others will fully support his chastity, he is creating a shield of sorts from temptations. Also, if he has any suspicions that he might be gay, he may still believe that being homosexual is a choice and not innate. Therefore, he surrounds himself with others who also subscribe to that thinking, with hopes that he can be cured. There just seems to be something in the way you have repeatedly described this boy, that makes me wonder about his sexuality.

Of course, I could be totally off-base, and if so, then here comes scenario number two, that your daughter might not be familiar with. She shouldn’t be so convinced he will graduate college a virgin. It’s not unusual at all for students who attend similar, conservative colleges to marry young. It satisfies both their desire to have sex, with their goal to remain a virgin until they’re married. We’ve known several girls, who are very fundamentalist Christians, who attend very, very conservative colleges, who meet ‘the one’ when they’re freshman or sophomores, and don’t want to wait til they graduate to have sex, so therefore they choose to get married young. It really is not uncommon, and if this young man is truly hetersexual, he may find someone in college and get married before graduation.

Just my observations.
teriwtt is offline

Hi.
started reading this post and only got as far as post #30, and then i was compelled to reinforce #30.
i read the initial post and immediately questioned the boy’ s sexual orientation/confusion/possibly avoidance.
while a religious proclivity is not unusual if his entire family/upbringing steered him in that direction, a total avoidance of dating usually is about not being comfortable, for whatever reason.
he could be unready, uninterested, undecided.
but his orientation and direction are not really the point.
your D’s attraction to him speaks to her desire to be safe, among other things.
her upbringing and her closeness and openness with you have made her weary of sexual pressure and repercussions. fear may not be a valuable motivator, however.
a prudent, level-headed approach and then, perhaps, someday birth control pills and condoms combined would be what i’d advocate.
if you–and the rest of our family–did not wait for marriage, she may not either.
i’d be cautious about the messages you send from here on out.
you wouldn’t want fear of pregnancy to be the dominant reason your daughter abstains. that motivation could be dangerous.
and you don’t want your daughter getting married earlier than she’s ready for any reason. 
just some ideas.
sherbeat

mstee · December 4, 2007, 12:48pm

jessiehl – good example of how easy it could be for someone with no experience to find themselves in a situation that could spin out of control. And you don’t have to be 13 or a virgin to find yourself falling for something like that. I have a friend that had something similar happen to her when she was older (18 or 19) – invited to an older man’s hotel room – a man that she admired, after a concert or some event like that – and she went, but quickly realized, uh oh, this is NOT what I want, and got out of there ASAP.

mstee · December 4, 2007, 12:51pm

And I know a young lady who just got married this summer at 18 because she and her boyfriend needed to be married before they could have sex. I can’t help but wonder if they did the right thing there. I have my doubts about that one, but time will tell, and I hope it turns out to be the right thing for them.

Northstarmom · December 4, 2007, 1:20pm

In another thread in which the OP posted, I noticed that she said that her D hides her head with a blanket during nudity in R-rated films.
Seems to me that the D could use more information from her mom about how sex is a fulfilling and delightful part of mature, responsible relationships (whether or not one chooses to wait until marriage).
Right now, the girl’s reaction seems to indicate that she may be thinking that sex is something unpleasant or shameful, not a normal, and human experience that it is normal to enjoy (and that one can make a decision about whether to enjoy sex inside or outside of a marriage).
I agree that one wouldn’t want to give your D the kind of unfortunate messages that the OP’s grandmom gave the OP.

paying3tuitions · December 4, 2007, 1:40pm

Still catching up on this fascinating thread;

pausing to give a standing ovation to Northstarmom’s two posts above for capturing the mother-daughter voice, and identifying where responsible parental guidance can begin but must end, without insult to the parent.

I always wished my Mom had been more open with me to discuss this. She and I discussed everything EXCEPT this. I felt badly when some posters hinted Mom is “babying” her daughter. Too little conversation in this arena has more potential harm than too much. THe kid will decide when it’s no longer necessary to chat up the romance life with the Mom. Until then, it’s a form of emotional support, not a crutch, for D to have this safe sounding-board.

Sawdust · December 4, 2007, 1:45pm

Oy, I am happy that both my kids are boys!

paying3tuitions · December 4, 2007, 1:59pm

LOL, Sawdust. With boy-girl-boy here: eldest boy conversed with us in early teens, then stopped by college. I also found two great, recently-published books, one for preteen boys and one for girls, and liked the level of information/emotion they provided, so just put them in the bathroom the 3 kids shared. They all told me the books were great and they stayed there for years.

With youngest boy, I realized we’d never heard a single question. We took the advice of Planned Parenthood to open up dialogue around age 2, rather than aim for a singular pre-teen “the talk” approach, which was my own upbringing.

This youngest boy mystified us. Not a single question, ever. When we’d try out a point of information (pre-teen), he already knew the answers. I’d say, on rare occasion: “We’re here and if anything you’re somehow learning from others makes no sense, please bring it to us. We’re not embarassed.”

Finally he asked, “What kind of questions do you think I should be asking?” I was stumped and felt so silly.

Probably his older brother (6 years older) was wising him up.

Re: the daughter, the generations do evolve. My Mom was raised with “the slap on the face” upon announcing her period (SLAP–now you can get pregnant, watch out).
She tried to improve with the singular preteen The Talk around age 11. I tried to improve by beginning early dialogue (Planned Parenthood says at age 2, when you have them say the parts of their body in a bathtub, also name the private parts and don’t skip over them in silence. THAT’s what they mean by beginning early dialogue.) I’d answer questions as they were asked, but took my D out to a festive Mom-D meal to celebrate first period as something wonderful.

I agree it’s so easy to get caught up in all the badness we forget to tell them how absolutely beautiful and enjoyable is the sexual dimension of a person’s life. Just to be healthy and able to reproduce (someday) should be celebrated, not feared so. Sigh.

Then by h.s., I heard from eldest S and D, Oh no we have to take Health. I hope they teach us something useful, like First Aid, because last year all they did was practice condoms, again and again, on bananas. H advised S’s to choose the larger bananas because girls notice stuff like that. I told them it was important for so many families where there IS no dialogue.

Opie_ofMaybery2 · December 4, 2007, 2:09pm

I have both, and they both have the same blessing in regards to making their own choices. An unexpected child can change everything for either sex, use precaution. Outside of that your body, your choice.

Except for one blurb to S, just to remind him that in this particular sport you are appreciated more for finishing second, rather than first…:)

Northstarmom · December 4, 2007, 2:14pm

“Oy, I am happy that both my kids are boys!”

? I have had lots of conversations about sex and love with both of my sons. If guys are to become responsible, caring, adults, they need to have the same guidance that girls do. Caring, thoughtful guys, also have concerns about when to engage in sex.

A friend of mine with a teen son also has had a lot of mom-son talks with him, and says he had some very deep questions about sexual intimacy: questions indicating he was seeing it as more than something to engage in for a fling.

Also, guys need to be as aware of the ways of preventing pregnancy that girls need to be aware of. While girls are more vulnerable to rape than guys are (and guys are vulnerable to rape – typically by guys. In my own college town, there was a case in which a professor was accused of sodomizing male students after slipping something into their alcoholic drinks), guys are vulnerable to having a woman misrepresent birth control (so the guy thinks she’s using it when she’s not) or pass off on a guy a pregnancy that’s not his child. And, of course, guys are vulnerable to being falsely accused of rape. Remember the Duke lacrosse players…

corranged · December 4, 2007, 2:23pm

Haha! What timeless father-son advice. :)

paying3tuitions · December 4, 2007, 2:32pm

It’s important to emphasize: make good choices

citygirlsmom · December 4, 2007, 3:17pm

What I see is a mom with issues she hasn’t dealt with well, and her daughter has picked up on those issues herself and basically is fearful

What I see is a boy who gives gifts, hangs out with this girl, they do lots of stuff together, but aren’t “dating”- well what would “dating” be then?

She picked an infatuation that has no interest in her, or anyone else…(whether he is gay, bi, or asexual, who really knows-and sometimes young men who aren’t ready to accept who they are, will use a girl as a beard- so he looks straight to the world, but his heart just isn’t into it)

the D made a conscious choice to pick an object of her affection, even down to almost stalking him at programs she herself isn’t even into

I see lots of issues here, but a big one is lack of confidence and fear

There is nothing wrong with flirting, holding a boys hand- I find it kind of sad that a 20something never held a boys hand, not even dancing

As for college, I went in as a virgin, had sex about 3 months into college, but didn’t have much sex after that…lots of dating, making out, etc…but I didn’t sleep with just anyone

For me, the OPs D needs to let go of this boy, otherwise she will measure up all future men to him, she will appear unavailable for even really nice guys because she is pining for the unattainable

This guy is like a fence for her…it protects her from being emotionally available to anyone else, it stops her from even trying to meet other nice boys

Its like the opposite of girls who seek out the Bad Boys on purpose…there needs to be someplace in the middle

Virginity and Going Away To College

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