<p>What Marlene said. :)</p>
<p>“I’m sure it is very difficult to picture your children in this situation, but convincing yourself that your child is abstaining because they are all high and mighty is the wrong way to deal with it. The right way is to raise awareness on STD’s and pregnancy and make sure if they are going to do it, which they pretty inevitable will fairly often, they should be practicing proper means of protection.”</p>
<p>Since this was in response to my post, I assume that you think that I’m saying my kids will abstain because they are “high and mighty.”</p>
<p>Again, I have never said my kids would abstain. I’ve repeatedly said that I believe that parents who talk to their kids about sex – including STDs, birth control and sex’s place as a fullfiling part of a respectful relationship (whether not that includes marriage) are less likely to have kids who engage in drunken hook-ups with people whom they just met.</p>
<p>" did not say or imply that ever guy is out to do that, just that I have time believing that they aren’t. I just feel that the subjects of your rebuttal seem too convenient to be true, and if it is true, which is can be, it is a very small minority of college age men. "</p>
<p>My assumption is that you’re judging college men by the people whom you hang out with. While it’s true that the majority of college men are not virgins (neither are the majority of college women), that doesn’t mean that the majority of college men would have sex with any woman who offered it or if they were in a committed relationship with a woman who wished to remain a virgin, the guys would be so desperate for sex that they’d sneak around and get laid by some other woman.</p>
<p>With adults, there are many times in which one may have a partner who is not able to have sex even if otherwise the partner would be willing. Just because one is in a relationship that includes sex doesn’t mean that it’s always possible to have sex.</p>
<p>Examples include when partners are ill or away for extended periods such as during military service. Men and women of good character who have committed to sexually exclusive relationships are able to control themselves so they don’t cheat. Some such women and men are the same age as are college students.</p>
<p>Does that mean that everyone who has agreed to a committed relationship actually is faithful? Of course not. But there are many – including young adults and teens – who manage to do that. They tend to quietly go about their lives so may not be as obvious to those who act otherwise and think it’s fun to let the world know about their exploits.</p>
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<p>Yes indeed. Count me in. Not as a mother who assumes anything. But as a mother who knows that her daughter is very self assured, and has too much respect for herself to merely “lose her virginity”. Many mothers (and fathers) have raised their children to value deep and meaningful relationships, and to understand that moving into a sexual relationship is not to be taken lightly.</p>
<p>OP,</p>
<p>i am gay and when i read your post about the boy, my “gaydar” just goes off!!! i second terriwtt’s explantion of his behavior. i just want to add that a conservative born-again christian, by default, is going to be in denial because of the conflict between biblical teaching and homosexuality and because of his proclaimed conviction of missionary work, it tells me it’s unlikely he goes to a liberal church. also, if that gay friend says he’s gay, he’s probably right. gay guys will tell you their “gaydar” is pretty accurate. my gaydar is often accurate about someone i just met, let alone someone i have spent a lot of time with before.</p>
<p>but even if he’s not gay, but if he’s really that religious, he’s gonna be dating only a chrisitian girl because that’s consistent with the biblical teaching, assuming he’s a conservative evangelical (and it sounds like he’s in that denomination). so either way, i think your daughter may be better off to move on and hopefully she won’t meet a closeted one!</p>
<p>Sam Lee is right on. </p>
<p>I haven’t read all the posts but I would add this, in case no one else has thought of this:</p>
<p>You might consider that your daughter might be more attached to this boy because she knows that guys willing to wait until marriage are a minority, and she might think that there aren’t too many others besides him to consider. So her feelings for him might be a bit clouded by fear that she’ll have a hard time finding anyone else.</p>
<p>I don’t know what the solution to that would be, but it might at least provide some clarity for her as she seeks to get over him and open up to other possibilities.</p>
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<p>Catching up on reading the posts…I second these concerns.</p>
<p>I talked to D some more tonight and wanted to mention a few things:</p>
<p>1) I tried to clarify why virginity is important to her since she is not religious. Discussed whether she felt it had to do with the religious boy. She stated that she decided to wait until marriage before he was her friend, when she and her female friend decided together (a friend who has now broken all of those promises). She stated “I do not need to be religious to believe that my body is sacred. I’m not just letting anyone have access to me.” </p>
<p>This kind of reminded me of how she would never wear a skirt without shorts underneath, and what she said to me about it – just in case some boy decided that he might try to look on her way up the stairs, she’d have a surprise for him.</p>
<p>2) I asked her about why she sets the timeline at marriage, because she is not religious. Her initial response was that she thinks it is important to be with someone who will not cheat on you, but then thought about it and said “Of course, cheating still happens”. But again, she stated “I don’t have to be religious to believe in marriage”. </p>
<p>3) I believe that she likely has formed negative opinions of males, and this is the logical consequence of what she has seen. Her bio father blew off any contact with her when she was young but old enough to remember. It’s not just him either. She sees what is there. A lot of decent women left raising kids alone in my family. </p>
<p>4) She has always been very modest. I, on the other hand, am not. I think it is her personality. The hiding under the covers was not our doing. One time she didn’t cover fast enough, and commented “My innocence has been damaged”. I mean, she chuckled about it, but I think she meant it too. Frankly, I think it is kind of sweet.</p>
<p>5) One thing that she consistently says is “I hate change”. She guages every relationship’s value by whether she believes it will last. It probably goes back to the loss of bio father as well as estrangements within my family. Since she can never get a guarantee that it will last, she keeps to herself. Which makes her a very devoted family member, but probably a very lonely girl where everyone else is concerned. </p>
<p>6) Which brings in the religious boy, who has been her friend since middle school. He’s stood the test of time and his morals have not failed her. She turns his lack of interest upon herself – it must be that she is not attractive. I broached the possibility that he may be gay and that perhaps their mutual gay friend (former friend to the religious boy) must have suggested it for a reason. She said that the gay friend lies to suit his own ends and that she does not believe him. She feels that the religious boy is perfect and that she acknowledges that she feels that he is safe. She expressed sadness that she wishes that she could just believe in religion as he does, because she believes it would solve her problems. She did ultimately say that she wants to date in college, and this led to the further discussions on her values regarding sex. </p>
<p>6) I think a change is coming about. She has asked questions about sex, some of which are pretty explicit, which I answered honestly. I told her that I am afraid of her being in a co-ed dorm because she has never experienced an aggressive male and would not see it coming. I was large breasted as a teen, and I told her that by the time I was her age, I had received many unwanted advances, but I learned how to deal with it. She shocked me by saying “I’d like to get groped!” I took it in stride, but I did feel odd hearing that from my own kid. </p>
<p>7) She is not taking any negative cues from me. I have been honest with her about my family history, but I live a life that has not been constrained by it, even if it still hurts to think of those times. When I was a kid, if my mother told me not to do something, it went in one ear and out the other. Not this kid, she listens like a mature adult. And she avoids all risk. </p>
<p>9) We discussed a while ago that she should get her first gyno exam at 18, whether sexually active or not. She is adamantly against it. But given her fears, if she becomes sexually active in college, I am against the idea of her having to go through that first exam alone at college. I had my first exam while I was still a virgin, and it hurt like hell, and the nurse was not sympathetic. So I am wondering if I she should go before college begins. She will turn 18 a couple of months after starting college. I am still considering that I should pack her some condoms, just in case. I’ve made clear that it is the only method that I believe can deter a disease.</p>
<p>10) Surely there are parents who got a phone call from college “Mom, I lost my virginity”. I think this is an important topic.</p>
<p>11) Rape is a real concern of mine. Apparently it is for her too. In fact, she eliminated a school off of her list when she read rape was a problem. Just about every female that I know, including those outside of my family, have either been molested or date/acquaintance raped. Read the statistics, 1 in 3 girls will be sexually abused/assaulted before the age of 18. I am very happy that my child has made it to this age without anything like that ever happening to her. I am afraid that she does not know how to handle males in any context. Be it the drunken male coming in from a night of partying into the common lounge and sees her on her way to the bathroom and thinks she’s might like a little shove and pawing up against the wall. Or the male who has seemed so smart and nice who she never realized that making out would lead to full blown sex. I actually think that my daughter would hit and kick at a male who tried to accost her. This might prove dangerous as well.</p>
<p>OP - your post is full and fear and anger and I am afraid it has been passed to your daughter - whether you intended it or not. She sees the world as you do - full of drunken boys waiting to attack her or smart boys waiting to seduce her. Men are mean and aggressive. Apparently she has not had a healthy, kind male in her life. My advice is to print out what you wrote and take it with her to a family counselor. I don’t blame her for choosing her unavailable friend for romance - what is there in her life to tell her there are safe boys out there? She probably associates intimacy with violence and fear and pain and anger - she needs help with that.</p>
<p>I agree with cartera, though I wouldn’t place the blame on the OP so much</p>
<p>I apologize if I came across as blaming. Mom, you have been through a lot and your feelings are likely justified. We all impact how our kids see the world. You may be able to help how your daughter sees hers.</p>
<p>Something about this skeeves me. Why are you so concerned about your child’s virginity? Shiverrrr!!!</p>
<p>my D would not say, I lost my virginity, she might say she was in a sexual relationship, but she wouldn’t put it in terms of Losing something</p>
<p>and that post was interesting by the OP, to say the least</p>
<p>to be honest, if the D finds a healthy relationship, she won’t recognize it</p>
<p>and while the # 1 in 3 is scary…if everyone you know, and I mean everyone you know has been molested or raped…wow…if that is how you are presenting life to your D, its amazing she even wants to leave the house</p>
<p>“she listens like a mature adult” and “she avoids all risk”</p>
<p>In my mind, these are inconsistent statements. Mature adults do not avoid all risk. They pick and choose their risks, they don’t take unnecessary risks, but they take risks all the time. Who among us would have children, would have any kind of satisfying emotional relationship, without having taken a whole bunch of risks?</p>
<p>The girl described in these posts sounds extremely immature. Not in a bratty, act-out way, of course, but frightened of growing up (and a little fascinated by it, too). I really don’t know that anyone needs to worry about protecting her from the big, bad world; she seems to be actively engaged in protecting herself. Maybe to a pathological extent, maybe not. It’s hard to tell without professional training, and reading a mother’s internet posts.</p>
<p>Anyway, there are a couple of additional thoughts I have about this thread:</p>
<ol>
<li> I guess there must be nasty, predatory boys out there. After all, I see them in movies, and I read Charlotte Simmons. But it occurs to me that I never actually met any. The closest match would be one of my college roommates, a preppy, jock-y, blonde Philistine. He certainly talked that game. But – sharing a bunk bed with him for two years – I had a pretty good sense of what his romantic life actually was. And it was . . . pretty romantic. He blustered and preened a lot, but when he actually had sex he was emotionally involved.</li>
</ol>
<p>All the boys I knew and know did our share of callous things when we were young, but it was rarely, if ever, malicious or even merely predatory. We were confused, sometimes we were ashamed of ourselves, and we all got hurt from time to time by confused, ashamed girls. The emotional dangers of sex go both ways.</p>
<ol>
<li> I am also a little uncomfortable about a certain strain of boasting: “My daughter is so strong and wise she will surely withhold herself until the perfect moment.” It’s a little like a secular “saving herself for marriage”.</li>
</ol>
<p>I don’t mind the idea, really. But I don’t know, and never knew, any of those people either. Well, hardly any. That might describe one of my sisters, who waited for a long time, and was in a committed relationship, and in optimal circumstances. And it was wonderful for her. And, for not entirely unrelated reasons – she not being a fan of risk much, either – she has not had an emotionally fulfilling life.</p>
<p>The other 99.9% of the people I know, including me and my wife, stumbled into sex at some point, made mistakes, got hurt, hurt others, learned how to deal with it, and found our way by trial and error. Even if a few lucky people avoid that, most people surely don’t – even those who save themselves for marriage. I think, by and large, that’s what people do. It’s what I expect for my kids, regardless of what I tried to teach them, because it’s what I expect for everyone’s kids.</p>
<p>So, if you, or your child, is one of the lucky few, please stop looking down your nose at me and my children, and please mute the bragging. I don’t believe all of you, and even if I believe some of you, I have a sneaking suspicion that luck played as big a part as superior moral grooming.</p>
<p>The comment “I’d like to be groped” says a lot. It means your daughter can’t distinguish between legitimate, healthy sexual attention and predatory sexual advances. She needs to be taught/shown that the first kind can exist, and that she shouldn’t feel the need to shy away from it (eg, by pulling the covers over her eyes and proclaiming her innocence damaged).</p>
<p>“I guess there must be nasty, predatory boys out there.”</p>
<p>70,000 on-campus rapes each year, and multiple times that in sexual assaults don’t lie.</p>
<p>I haven’t read all the posts, but I can’t help thinking a therapist is missing out on some interesting work…</p>
<p>[Losing</a> virginity early or late tied to health risks | Health | Reuters](<a href=“http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSFLE47097220071204]Losing”>http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSFLE47097220071204)</p>
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<p>sex is good, as long as she doesnt go out of line, you dont have anything to worry about</p>
<p>“This kind of reminded me of how she would never wear a skirt without shorts underneath, and what she said to me about it – just in case some boy decided that he might try to look on her way up the stairs, she’d have a surprise for him…”</p>
<p>This is an example of how your D has an unrealistically low opinion of men, and as a result has done some unusual things herself in response. Her response was extreme to the low possibility that some guy would try to look up her skirt, and it also indicates a very bitter, cynical view of males in general.</p>
<p>“I believe that she likely has formed negative opinions of males, and this is the logical consequence of what she has seen. Her bio father blew off any contact with her when she was young but old enough to remember. It’s not just him either. She sees what is there. A lot of decent women left raising kids alone in my family. …”</p>
<p>I don’t think that she had to have formed such negative views. She could have viewed her own family as unusual or have viewed the problem as being that the women in her family made poor choices despite there being many good men. Instead, she seems to think that what she sees in her family represents the norm of what most men will do.</p>
<p>I grew up in an unhappy home in which my dad raged, cheated on my mom, and basically ignored my brother and me. I did not, however, think that all men were like him. I have been married for almost 30 years to a man who is not like my dad.</p>
<p>" She has always been very modest. … I think it is her personality. The hiding under the covers was not our doing. One time she didn’t cover fast enough, and commented “My innocence has been damaged”. I mean, she chuckled about it, but I think she meant it too. Frankly, I think it is kind of sweet…"</p>
<p>I don’t think it’s sweet. She seems to view having a normal interest in sex as dangerous or shameful. Her response is like that of a 10-year-old, not a high school student. That’s not a good thing because it is normal and healthy for adults and teens to have an interest in sex. Having sexual feelings and interests doesn’t mean that one will jump into bed with anyone.</p>
<p>“She guages every relationship’s value by whether she believes it will last. …Since she can never get a guarantee that it will last, she keeps to herself. Which makes her a very devoted family member, but probably a very lonely girl where everyone else is concerned. …”</p>
<p>She has a very immature perspective on life. And unless she develops a new perspective, she’ll grow into a very lonely adult because you and the rest of her family probably won’t be with her for all of her life. </p>
<p>“I told her that I am afraid of her being in a co-ed dorm because she has never experienced an aggressive male and would not see it coming…”</p>
<p>I know you’re well meaning, but your advice is telling her that the world is very dangerous. Truth is that co-ed dorms actually provide ways for students to develop platonic relationships with the opposite sex. Often students deliberately avoid dating people in their dorms because they want some separation between their romantic lives and “homes”. </p>
<p>"She is not taking any negative cues from me. …Not this kid, she listens like a mature adult. And she avoids all risk. "</p>
<p>She listens like a young child. Adults and thoughtful children take productive risks because they know that risks can lead to good things, and failure is not final. There’s a big difference between taking an unwise risk – jumping into the car of a strange guy who has flirted with you on the street, for example – and taking a productive risk – moving into a co-ed dorm.</p>
<p>“We discussed a while ago that she should get her first gyno exam at 18, whether sexually active or not. She is adamantly against it. But given her fears, if she becomes sexually active in college, I am against the idea of her having to go through that first exam alone at college. I had my first exam while I was still a virgin, and it hurt like hell.”</p>
<p>Again, you are trying to be kind, but you are giving your D the message that gyno exams are painful and scary. I had my first gyno exam when I was a 12-year-old virgin and it wasn’t traumatic and didn’t hurt. My mom was there as she was for all of my medical exams when I was a child, but she never mentioned anything about possible pain, and I didn’t feel any.</p>
<p>" Rape is a real concern of mine. Apparently it is for her too…"</p>
<p>While I agree that all women and men should have education about rape including what to do to avoid it (and, incidentally, colleges do provide this kind of education as part of freshmen orientation), there are things that your D can do that will greatly reduce the chance of rape.</p>
<p>These include: avoiding being slipped “date rape” drugs by not drinking out of punchbowls; drinking bottled or canned drinks that she opens herself and keeps under her own control at all times; avoiding drunkenness, etc.</p>
<p>When I worked as a psychologist, I worked with many rape victims including college students. Many were intoxicated or high when they were raped. As a result, they were more vulnerable to being taken unfair advantage of than they would have been if they were sober.</p>
<p>I know the rape/molestation stats are 1 in 3, and I believe those. However, I do think that many of those rapes and molestations could have been avoided.</p>
<p>I am not suggesting that the women were at fault, however. But often rape is a crime of opportunity such as if a man of low character rapes a drunken woman. Molestations often happen when, for example, mothers leave their kids in the care of the mother’s male friends or relatives. While the victim was not at fault, the situations were avoidable.</p>
<p>While I truly appreciate the close relationship that you and your D have that allows her to feel comfortable talking with you about sex, at the same time, I think you’ve inadvertently passed along some unneeded fears about men and sex. </p>
<p>Based on what you’ve written as well as my own experience with my mom, whom I had an exceptionally close relationship with as a teen, I also think that due to your unusual closeness, that the upcoming separation when your D goes away to college will be very hard for both of you, and some counseling in advance may help. </p>
<p>If your D refuses to go, I hope you’ll go because I think counseling will help you help her have a good transition while also helping you fill the hole in your life after your D leaves.</p>
<p>In terms of being very close to my mom, shy, and not dating, I was very similar to your D when I went off to college.</p>
<p>The summer before I left was dreadful. I was very snarky to my mom – unusual for me, and looking back, I think it was because I was so close to her that leaving her was frightening, so I felt I needed to do something that would drive a wedge between us. </p>
<p>Mom also was constantly picking on me about very minor things. She would have said that she was trying to improve me, but the things she harped on (my new hairstyle, for example), were unnecessary and further wrecked my meager confidence. </p>
<p>Looking back, I realize that my mom was reacting to her upcoming loss of losing her best friend – me, and both of us could have used some counseling to help with the transition.</p>
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<p>That is just really strange. Wouldn’t a kid be more likely to say “I’d like to be kissed” or “I’d like to make out with someone”. The statement almost sounds like a wish for aggression, rather than a mutual consent.</p>
<p>Maybe I’m over-interpreting.</p>
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<p>When I took my D for her first Gynac., before going to college, she was very nervous. Who wouldn’t be? But the doctor was very sweet, and gentle, and she reassured my D that it would not be a “full internal”. Please don’t tell your D that “it hurt like hell”.</p>
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<p>Ummmm… that’s just odd. I would never expect such a phonecall. If my D or S were in a relationship, I would just expect sex to happen at some point, but neither of them would ever make a phonecall to ME about it.</p>