BD11, did you ever talk to Tammy Blakey (of Blakey v. Continental Airlines fame, she lives around here)? She did all the things you recommend and her treatment was still brutal, but it is easier to pay one lawsuit than to fire half the pilots. Her actions, no matter what she wore or how she behaved, could not control the actions of the men around her.
I can’t be the only one bothered by this wording. A man’s natural inclination is not to rape requiring him to “control himself.”
@magnetron nope. But I abhor the idea that men are hormonal pigs who have no control. That hasn’t been my experience and I don’t get the characterization.
And I say this as sexual assault victim. As LM said, it’s not about sex, it’s about power.
Now, what’s wrong with heels? Some outfits call for heels and I like finished look.
In my definition of feminism, it’s just as important we support our sisters ( and brothers!) wearing heels as supporting those wearing flats, makeup wearers as well as the bare faced, etc. We support and respect their right to choose even when their choice wouldn’t be our choice. Having a choice is important and empowering. imho.
@Magnetron As @sherpa honestly said above, men are hard-wired to want to have sex with every attractive female they see. Most men resist that impulse. Some don’t,
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I support people wearing whatever they want as I’ve said many times. I was simply responding to something up-thread asking when the criticism stops. As a non-make-up wearing, non-heel-wearing female, there was never really any face-to-face criticism for me.
Heels are physically bad for you. We just weren’t designed to walk like that. I’m not making a moral judgment- wear them to your heart’s content.
We do many physically bad things for pleasure. If wearing heels feel right in dressing up and if that make you feel good, why single it out when you drink coffee, alcohol, stay up all night, eat cookies, smoke pot, skip exercise, etc, etc?
I think men and women are both wired to want sex - I mean both have pleasure organs. The biggest difference is men are raised more freely than women. Women are told to cover up, save themselves, etc.
I also think that women would be just as sexual as men if men weren’t so terrible at pleasing women LOL.
In any case OP - you can feel however you want about women showing their “assets”, but it’s not your business to say anything about it. If you want to make comments about something, you should direct your comments to men who don’t respect women. The sense of entitlement to womens’ bodies is too real. Too much catcalling, creeping on, following, and too many unsolicited explicit pictures.
The problem with slut shaming is that it is designed to make someone (usually a woman, don’t think I ever saw it applied to a man) because someone thinks the way they dress, the way they present themselves, or their sexuality makes them a ‘slut’ in their eyes. The biggest problem with shut slaming it is basically someone trying to force others to dress or behave in the way they think is appropriate and is really about enforcing behavioral norms on others. What is worse is as others have pointed out, it is usually aimed at women (what a big surprise) and is an offshoot of the moral hypocrisy society and religion often puts out, that shames women but nods nods wink wink at men.
Are there times where there is appropriate dress? Sure, you show up at a job interview wearing a spandex low cut dress or board shorts, and it is inappropriate, not because it is sexual, but because it is informal as hell (though workday wardrobes these days are very different than when I started working, lot of young women where I work or in the building I am or observing around the city, wear outfits and heels they wouldn’t have back then, and men can wear things like jeans and such that wouldn’t have been allowed).
The basic answer is you don’t have to like the way someone dresses, but you don’t have the right to openly express derision at the way they choose to dress or live their lives if they aren’t hurting anyone. The women in Iran who go around shaming women that is usually made fun of is no different than the church lady type who claims that anyone who has sex out of marriage or dresses to display their attitributes or whatnot is a slut, it is the same thing IMO.
Of course, if the job interview is for a surfing instructor, showing up wearing board shorts may be just right.
@philbegas There is a biological difference. Men cannot reproduce without sexual pleasure. Women can. I do believe the sex drive is stronger in men than in women.
However, we are not animals. We are capable of choosing not to act on our impulses. As I said, most men have learned that a desire flitting past does not mean they get to follow it. The opposite impulse is just not true of women.
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I don’t think anyone was singling out heels. Coffee, junk food, and alcohol are not relevant to this discussion. Why would anyone mention them?
I’d like to take that one step further. It implies to girls what others think of them defines who they are not what they think who they are. I have no intention of telling my girl to be careful when their intentions are innocent, If they are using feminity/sexuality to “lure” a boy/man, I would worry why they are so desperate rather than what they wear.
As it should be,in my opinion.
DW wears minimal makeup. DD wears none, and also doesn’t wear heels, and is successfully working in a professional office environment.
For the record, neither DS or I wear makeup or heels either. No double standard in our family.
My take on this is that almost all men are hormonal, relatively few are pigs, and very few have no control.
I dislike the pigs even more than I dislike overinflated fake boobs, which is to say, a lot.
I have major issues with men who lack self control, and I expect this feeling is universal.
Re #130 “biological difference”
The biological difference is that (for the propogation of genes) males are cheaper and more disposable than females, but a male can (at the expense of other males) potentially father more offspring than a female can mother.
Because social norms are how we behave as a society. Social norms are fluid, but generally are slow to change. We, as a society, have determined that we keep our private parts private. Someone can rail against this, but until we as a society decide it’s OK to let it all hang out, it is what it is. If you like to run around buck naked, there are smaller societies of people for whom that is the norm. My opinion is you do your kids no service in life if you don’t help them learn cues. Clothing has always and always been a signal on all kinds of levels and it shouldn’t come as a surprise to any adult. You don’t go to a nice restaurant as a male in a tank top with hairy armpits and a ballcap and act surprised if you don’t get the best service.
Same with sexual behavior, we has a society tend to support monogamous relationships. We’ve evolved to include various combinations of gender but nonetheless society is structured to support monogamy. No one has to buy into the concept of social norms, but if you’re an outlier, you’re an outlier and being outraged about being an outlier is not society as a whole’s problem and someone “slut shaming” someone is signaling that the person being shamed is an outlier. Maybe someday monogamy won’t exist anymore if enough members of society move in that direction. I fear that even if we abolish the words “slut shaming” from our daily lexicon…another word will take it’s place because it’s the behavior behind the word that is socially not the norm.
Just because you “can” dress or behave in a particular manner doesn’t mean that everyone in your particular society has to find it acceptable. Whether it is labeled “progress” or simply evolution is debatable.
@momofthreeboys I wouldn’t really say that we as a society decided to keep our privates private. Clothing evolved out of a need to stay warm, and protect areas that are sensitive to pain. Then religion (men) took over, and told us all we were going to hell if we weren’t monogamous, celibate, etc. They told women they were going to hell if they didn’t act modestly, and obey men. Religion =/= society and I, for one, fully endorse moving away from the dark ages.
A female pilot can dress “like a man” because that is the industry standard of dress, or because she doesn’t want to signal sexual availability to her co-workers, or because someone is a position of authority told her to do so, or because it’s more comfortable for her. Or she can dress more “femininely”, (or more provocatively) as a deliberate protest in a male dominated field, because she is interested in a potential mate among her co-workers, or because she just likes a certain style of dress, or she is clueless.
It seems pretty complicated to me.
Busdriver is dressing to be taken seriously. When I want to me taken seriously, I might put on pearls. People judging us on appearance may decide one or both of us look serious and worthy of respect or neither of us. Where I come from, pearls are serious, not tee shirts and jeans. That isn’t a judgement, merely an observation.
Good points, ucb. The flip side of that for the female is that reproducing is extremely costly. Being pregnant and giving birth are dangerous and difficult, and then we are tied to the offspring until they can fend for themselves. Lots of men choose to go on that journey along with their mate, but for them it is a choice. For us, it is an imperative.
The trouble is the double standard. If boys are allowed or even praised to show off their masculinity/sexuality while we tell girls they can’t show off who they are and that doing so is shameful, that sends a message that they are inferior to boys. There’s no way around it. If the society would accept you only as an inferior person, it’s a society you need to defy unfortunately.