When to backoff HYPMS and apply ED to other good colleges

Applying to College
21

<p>ParentofIvy, don’t take any numbers too seriously! </p>

<p>Remember that many athletic recruits are expected to apply early to gain a spot on the team. UPenn and Columbia may not seem like sports powerhouses but they are Div I! </p>

<p>Also, children of alumni are encouraged to apply early as well. According to princetonreview.com, both schools “consider” alumni relations. </p>

<hr>

<p>There is no doubt that colleges love demonstrated interest, but don’t think that the chances are that much better. You only get one early decision, and in regular application, i’m sure that hundreds if not thousands of people just choose to send their common app to some random ivy (because its so easy! just check off another box and pay 65$, chump change for most)</p>

22

<p>ADOFFICER’s post made excellent points, which in turn gave me some clarity about why college admissions is so stressful (beyond the competitiveness). There is a lot of talk about a “match”, but it is absurdly difficult to make such an analysis. US News and colleges post statistics, and school websites give very nebulous marketing descriptions. Except for random, anecdotal evidence found on sites such as CC, impossibly brief whirlwind college tours, or the luck inherent in stumbling across an alumnus with great analysis skills, there is little opportunity to properly pick academic, social, and emotional match schools.</p>

23

<p>As many have said, I would say apply to the school you really like early, that’s what college admissions should be all about!</p>

24

<p>POIH:
3 things:
(1) It’s an advantage to apply to a <em>very selective</em> U (such as Penn, etc.) if you are hooked. Is your daughter hooked? (URM, major donor family, likely recruited athlete, celebrity?) Simply being quite outstanding is not enough. It puts you in the ballpark for a good review, but given the applicant pool to schools like Penn (where a lot of legacies apply ED, and those <em>do</em> get an edge in the ED round, for <em>Penn</em>), an unhooked very good student is more likely to get a deferral to the RD round, than a straight-out ED acceptance.</p>

<p>(2) Preferences can change quite a bit between soph. yr. and the beginning of sr. yr. Your daughter will have done more research (I hope) and may have more defined ideas by the time of the application period, than she does now. Why rush things?</p>

<p>(3) It’s an advantage to apply ED anywhere if you are even slightly more academically attractive than the typical applicant to that school. That is not going to be true at the Universities you have named. Your daughter may be as attractive. But “as” in itself does not cut it for ED at top schools.</p>

25

<p>here are some snipets from some previous posts i made about this subject…</p>

<p>Because there are fewer students applying early decision rather than regular decision, there is a statistical improvement in your chances for being admitted. Look at Princeton, for example…they admitted almost 600 students through ED out of a pool of 2500 last year; in regular decision, when there could be as many as 12,000 applicants, the school can only admit another 900 - 1000 applicants in order to yield a class of 1150. Crunch the numbers…your chances are way better through ED. UPenn takes about 50% of its class through ED and creates a situation similar to Princeton. However, not all schools stack their classes using ED…yield at these two schools also seems pretty high, but keep in mind that they are yielding 100% (or almost that) of their ED admits, who represent significant chunks of their enrollees, thus artificially boosting their yield (which is why US News took it out of their rankings methodology).</p>

<p>It is true that a lot of highly selective schools do see a larger proportion of the students who are “hooked” applying in their early pools. Athletes, for example, are often encouraged to apply early decision to schools, or ED II to their second choice if they are not admitted ED I to their first choice. In general, the admit rates are higher in early rounds at all schools. Whether or not that means it is “easier” to get in early vs. regular decision at a particular school depends, of course, on the caliber of students applying early. In “The Early Admissions Game”, Avery, Zeckhauser, and their colleagues did find that statistically (meaning SAT and GPA - though keep in mind these are not the only things we look at in the admissions process!) ED applicants are typically weaker than regular applicants while EA applicants tend to be stronger than their regular decision counterparts. These findings, however, are from several years ago and I would be curious to see if this still is true today considering the number to students applying under early programs. </p>

<p>What is truly scary to me though is the fact that some schools are taking such a large percentage of their incoming class through early decision…when I see some of the most-selective schools in the country taking 50% of their incoming class through early decision, I get nervous for the kids who 1) don’t know about early plans (usually URM students and low-income students who don’t get good college counseling) and the kids who 2) don’t have any “hooks” like legacy or development status to help them out in regular decision. The admit rates in regular decision at some places can be as low as 5% (look at Harvard for example…although they are/were EA, they still yield 75% of the kids they take EA, leaving very, very little room in regular decision…). I also get concerned about students who feel pressure to apply early to schools because they think it is their only chance of getting into a particular school and about students who apply early because they think it is an advantage without really being sure that the school is 100% their top choice. </p>

<p>What is frustrating to me as an admissions person is that early programs are designed for students who know what their top choice is…whether it is a school that offers EA or ED, these programs started solely for the purpose of letting you guys know early about your top choice…Brown and Harvard started the process way back in the '70s (yes, I was around then…) but since it has gotten nuts. That’s why Brown went to ED a few years ago from EA…they found that many of their EA applicants were simply using Brown EA as a barometer re:their chances of getting in to an Ivy; they switched to ED to ensure that only kids who were 100% sold on Brown would get an early decision from them…that’s why their ED admit rate is the lowest of the Ivies, too, I think…they don’t mess around with ED! </p>

<p>there is a psychological factor to all of this, and when you apply ea somewhere, you are often times pressured to matriculate by the institution having not explored all of your options if you are admitted. there have been studies on this and, quite frankly, its a little creepy…also, financial aid packages can be smaller for those admitted through ea and ed. in addition, you stand a greater risk of getting denied flat out in ea if you are a marginal candidate for admission than you would in rd - in ea you are usually competing with the whole ea pool - usually the most academically competitive kids applying to the school period (which is usually what the pools in ea are at places like harvard and yale) - whereas in regular decision, decisions are made based more on regional applications.</p>

<p>just some things to think about…whether it is “easier” to get in or not applying ED can depend on a lot of things…bottom line: if you are sure - 100% - that a school is your top choice, then apply early. otherwise, forget about it, unless you are really so concerned with issues of prestige that you want it to drive your college destination.</p>

26

<p>Parent of Ivy Hope…you are on the right track, IMO. I would consider Penn and Columbia the two Ivies with the largest remaining potential early boost. Up until next year, Princeton and Harvard were the others that took almost half the class early.
Read “The Early Admissions Game”. The numbers are getting a little old, but the same principles apply today.
The key is your daughter’s strength as a candidate. Moving from a 20% chance RD to a 60% chance ED might be a worthwhile strategy at Penn or Columbia. Such a candidate might have, for example, a less than 10% chance of admission to Yale SCEA in the first place.
But moving from a 5% chance RD to a 10% chance ED might not be worth applying early.
Of course these schools are all different and, as a parent like you, I’m sure your daughter’s happiness (consistent with good sense) should rule. It’s her decision.</p>

27

<p>parent, stop spending all your time on CC. your many hours of crazy research and forum surfing WILL NOT help your child get into an ivy league institution. i hate to be a b*tch about it, but its the only way to deal with ignorance.</p>

<p>go to work, make some money, love your kids, and support them regardless of where they go. its funny how you talk about the other ivies like they’re state colleges</p>

28

<p>Remember that early pools tend to be much more self-selective, too, so that would affect the early admit rates.</p>

29

<p>I agree with kyledavid. You see, the problem with just looking at numbers – whether that’s ranking, admit rates, ED rates, whatever, is that you’re talking about raw results without the content of those results. It’s like doing a medical diagnosis without what is called differential diagnosis. </p>

<p>Yes, it looks to be an advantage to apply even to the ultra-selectives as an ED candidate. And yes, the pool is “weaker,” statistically. But that’s because the pool includes many otherwise hooked candidates! (“forever” legacies, donors, recruited athletes, URM’s, and others who do not necessarily need the ultra-competitive academic elements that the rest of us mortals do). ED is meaningless out of context. You have to look at the level of competition at the college in question, the makeup of the applicant pool (and we’ll never know that entirely, although we do know that the Elites are interested big time in diversity).</p>

<p>So again, I would not look at ED at the Elites as a predictive strategy in terms of results. When the time comes – and it looks as if that’s a year and a half away – to apply, then throw in an ED if you wish, to the best-fit schol, but she may end up applying to just as many schools as if there were no ED application. (Number one, it’s not good to sit around and “wait” for an ED decision, because you lose valuable application time; number two, a deferral may later become a waitlist or a rejection, which means, again, still the need to apply to many schools in the meantime.)</p>

30

<p>myang709 : I’ve made enough dough that is why I send my daughter to Prep school and will be paying for her education where ever she go.</p>

<p>I worked hard when it was required and now I think I can devote time for her college search. I believe in knowledge and my getting more and more information will only help her. </p>

<p>I believe in raising good children by devoting time. I don’t know what is your problem here.</p>

31

<p>POIH: I feel sorry for you. Whether or not I agree with your assessment, it’s a shame people waste time attacking you. If they disagree with you, they should just ignore your post. It seems you are a target and may want to come back under a different user name. The irony is the only reason I see your posts is because the attackers keep bumping you up to the top of the thread list (I rarely look beyond the first page). Good luck to you and your daughter!</p>

32

<p>I second my good friend epiph’s comments n #29.</p>

<p>Anecdote: one of the top girls at our competitive public HS this year applied to P’ton ED thinking it was her ‘best chance’ at a top Ivy, and was deferred. She then threw out apps to H, Y, Brown and Stanford, and was accepted to all of them. Was also finally accepted to P’ton, but she turned THEM down for Cambridge. I have no way of knowing if she did much application improving in late Dec, but obviously ED was of no value to her in this case.</p>

33

<p>I think it’s silly to apply ED to a college if it’s not your first choice, no matter what large probability you have of getting in. Remember that if you go ED to some slightly easier school, but your heart was always set on HYPSM, you will always wonder for the rest of your life… what if?</p>

34

<p>Because people apply to so many schools today, it’s hard to predict who will get in where. I agree with many of the posters that if your daughter has the credentials to get into Columbia, Penn, etc., then she probably has a good chance at HYPSM. Even if it is easier to get in ED at Columbia, Penn, etc., your daughter may regret not having the opportunity to apply to Yale. </p>

<p>I wish all ED programs would switch to EA because it gives the student more choices (including the one to stop applying to more schools). In ED, the balance of power is shifted to the University. We could also get rid of all the arguments about how much ED affects admit rate, yield etc.</p>

35

<p>I know of quite a few people who were deferred early and then were accepted RD.
I know that one of my friends who was deferred from Columbia ED was accepted RD after he wrote a letter to the school letting them know how much he wanted to go.</p>

36

<p>The OP clearly does not know what he/she is talking about</p>

<p>The Early admit rate for Ivies this year:</p>

<p>Harvard-22%
Yale -19%
Princeton- 27%
Columbia- 24%
UPenn- 29%
Brown- 22%
Dartmouth-not sure
Cornell- 40%+</p>

<p>As you can see… the only school with a significant advantage applying early to is Cornell. And as for yield stacking, Princeton, Columbia, Penn, Yale, and Harvard roughly accept 40% of their class through their EA/ED programs. And to assert Columbia, Penn, Brown, Dartmouth as lower ivies is flat out ridiculous. Columbia COllege had the lowest acceptance rate of any Ivy this year (look at NYTimes–8.9%). Wharton hover around 9.5% as well. There are plently of kids that get into HYMPS that don’t get into Columbia/Wharton and vice versa. </p>

<p>…</p>

<p>Bottom line: Apply to where you think you REALLY want to go.</p>

37

<p>^ I agree that it is difficult to get into all the ivys and that the selection process can seem a bit random. However, the acceptance rates you listed for EA/ED are 2-3x the rate for regular decision. Also, the argument that others make about the people who get in ED are confusing. If they have a “hook” (legacy, athlete, etc.), why would they apply ED? If I had a “hook”, I would apply to multiple places regular decision to see where I get in since I have a “hook” at one of the schools anyways. </p>

<p>If all the prestigious schools get rid of their ED, or at least change it to EA which is non-binding, all students will be better off. Harvard and Princeton have already done so and Yale has early action. Hopefully the rest will follow.</p>

38

<p>POIH: While admissions are unpredictable, HYP admissions tend to be harder than the other ivies for people who are phenomenal students. There’s a girl on CC who mentioned she got into Harvard with a 1300 SAT, middle of her class at a prep school, and no real significant activities. She wrote an essay about riding the bench on a sports team in high school–I guess they liked her down-to-earth personality and took her. The people who are surprised to get into HYP tend to be the people who can be rejected to the so-called “lower” ivies. The “in at Princeton, rejected at Cornell” people tend to be the people that everyone was surprised that they got into Princeton in the first place. (I know, I know, it’s not ALWAYS true.) The whole “having something else to offer” thing is often overblown. Many people who are smarter than HYP admits also have something to offer–sometimes the adcomm at HYP just didn’t like them or something. That said, Brown can be more unpredictable than even HYP even for great students. But I think Cornell, UPenn, and Dartmouth emphasize excellence in the classroom a little more than the “higher” ivies. I remember the people at Dartmouth telling me 10 years ago that they were trying to really shed their “party” atmosphere and going hard after great students. </p>

<p>The problem, POIH, is that you think Adcomms are filled with people who think the same way you do. HYP doesn’t try to assemble the smartest class they can even when you take out the athletes and legacies. They don’t have to. Once you get past the people who are in the top 50 in math, it is a basically a crapshoot between the people who are 2100+ and top 5% of their class. A few years ago, there were a flurry of emails circulating among the Intel/Siemens finalists where quite a few people were complaining they didn’t get into their first college choices. </p>

<p>There are things which they seem to like, though. For one, health-related community service in the summer in some third-world country. If she can produce a short documentary or something about their experiences that’s a plus. Your kid says she wants to be a doctor anyway so some health-related community service is a good idea anyway. This would be a good subject to write about as the subject of your essays.</p>

<p>Also, when writing your essays, you want to de-emphasize your academic nature. It may seem logical to present yourself in your essays as someone who is a very serious student because most people would want a doctor who went for the 100% in their med school classes rather than was just satisfied with being right 90% of the time. However, this is not what they want to read in your essays. Be a serious student, but don’t write about your passion for academics. The whole “I learned so much more in my trip to Peru than I did in the classroom” is the point-of-view they are looking for. The “I can ‘do the work’ but that’s not what I’m about”. Founding an outreach organization in your home community or the one near your kid’s private school is also something highly valued. Maybe have her start volunteering somewhere and tell her to keep her eyes open for some type of service that isn’t being offered in her community. It could be anything–test prep for inner city kids, etc… You get the idea. </p>

<p>Unless you want to go to MIT/CalTech, spending your entire summer taking a college class the summer after your junior year is not a great idea. However, it might be a good idea for this summer if she doesn’t have plans yet and assuming you think she can get an “A” in a college class. </p>

<p>Also, appearing too eager can really backfire. People say they want to see interest, but in reality that’s not the case. I know a very smart guy who applied to Harvard only because his father made him. The interviewer asked him why he applied to Harvard, and he said, “My father made me apply.”(?!) They admitted him, and he promptly turned them down for Stanford. You don’t want to come off like you are trying to please some adcomm committee. </p>

<p>Also, another tip. Be careful how you appear in front of your college counselor. This person is writing a rec for your child. The last thing you want to do is seem too pushy. Don’t go to this person for information on how to get your child into an ivy. Hire an independent counselor or something if you want to get some information on the best strategy to get into these schools. There are a few reputable ones. Ivywise is a popular one (although very expensive.) But don’t tell anybody you have an independent counselor, least of all your real college counselor or your college interviewer.
The link has a pretty good article.
<a href=“http://members.forbes.com/forbes/2004/0607/186.html[/url]”>http://members.forbes.com/forbes/2004/0607/186.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>These are just things I’ve just observed people do and have success. I didn’t have an independent counselor myself and didn’t go to some foreign country to do community service. </p>

<p>As for your original question, applying ED might be a good strategy to make it more likely that she can get in somewhere good but I don’t recommend it. Wait until after junior year after she knows her scores and academic standing before you make the decision. Like people have said, you don’t want her to apply ED somewhere and then have to turn down her dream school. </p>

<p>Good luck and I hope your daughter gets into her dream school!</p>

39

<p>Sure, the acceptance for RD is lower, but thats also because there are simply more applicants. You need to consider all the factors (applicant pool, number of applicants) to really see if you have an edge at applying ED. </p>

<p>The only student going to Harvard this year from my school applied RD. Our valedictorian (with higher SATs, higher GPA) got rejected even though she applied early. Btw, the student who got in wasnt legacy/URM/athlete, he was an international student though. </p>

<p>This student also applied to your so called <code>lower ivies</code> but was rejected from Columbia, Cornell, etc. College admissions process is random so I wouldnt count on getting in ED. Apply where your daughter wants to would be the best advice.</p>

40

<p>^ Again, I feel it is very difficult to get into any ivy. They are all prestigious to me. However, early decision does seem to be easier at some schools and thus is a valid strategy if it is somebody’s dream school.</p>

<p>Other posters have already shown that the academic stats of early admits tends to be lower. It is also doubtful most of the people are special admits (especially at schools where ED makes up more than 40% of the class). I agree with Japstudent12 that there are many more applicants for RD than ED. That’s why the acceptance rate is so much higher (2-3x) in ED.</p>

<p>It will be interesting to see what happens to Princeton admit rates and yield next year when ED goes away …</p>