When to backoff HYPMS and apply ED to other good colleges

Applying to College
41

<p>“If they have a “hook” (legacy, athlete, etc.), why would they apply ED?”</p>

<p>Because they understand their advantageous position; that’s why. They’re banking on it being a logical first choice for them, and their selection being a logical first choice for the college in question. And that’s why informed students do this so much.</p>

<p>It’s slightly O/T, but I do think that:
(1) conversion of ED to EA lopsidedly favors the individual student, as opposed to the college/U.
(2) retaining both ED U’s and EA U’s – also ED II – is quite beneficial to the entire applicant pool, as it reduces the number of applications in total.
(3) reducing the sum total of all Early rounds is somewhat negative for the colleges, as it reduces yield predictability and increases the applicant pool.</p>

42

<p>^ I think we are saying the same thing. Applicants with a “hook” are stronger than the average applicant. If they are sure about their choice they will apply ED because it is advantageous to apply ED. Applicants without a “hook” may also find this strategy beneficial.</p>

43

<p>Several points to add:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Earlier in the thread, LAC’s were mentioned. I know Amherst is “cool” to ED’s, discussed dropping it entirely a few years back, tried to get others to do so; but when others maintained it they weren’t ready to back out of that realm. Still, they admit a very small percentage of their class by ED (I don’t know the actual percentage), deferring most to RD. As for the other LAC’s mentioned above (Wms, Pomona, Claremont…), I don’t know their attitude or percentage admit rates for ED. My point: If you’re worried about Ivies, just don’t assume it’s a great strategy to apply ED to top-LAC’s assuming the LAC would love to see you as an ED. If, however, the top LAC is your authentic first choice, then write the best possible ED application.</p></li>
<li><p>No matter where you apply ED, continue working and be ready to file 7 or more other apps in time for RD. The hardest work of all is maintaining motivation for the other 7 (or more) RD apps during December, while waiting to hear from that ED. If the ED rejects, just forget about Christmas vacation senior year; it will be all about finishing 7 other RD apps before Jan 1. (This was one time we were mighty happy to be “Hannukah People.” ;)</p></li>
</ol>

<p>My advice: even if you file an ED, anywhere, never believe you’re getting in. Stay committed to writing the other RD applications. If you’re lucky, you can throw them all in the wastebasket when the ED letter arrives, which happened once in our home. The other time was an ED reject. Either way, work on the RD apps, after filing an ED, as if RD was the only “game” in town. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>Choose to apply ED only if it’s your authentic first choice, EVEN if you’re a legacy or have that hook. We’re double-legacy at Oberlin, a fine LAC, but our middle child resisted considering or even visiting our school because it was “ours.” Finally, in October of senior year, after touring 3 regions and 15 colleges and unis, she visited Oberlin, last, and fell in love with it within an hour on campus. She revamped her whole application process, applying there ED. That’s the kind of “love” I mean to support an ED application, anywhere, even with a hook such as double-legacy. The “outcome” isn’t just gaining admission; it’s going there and “loving every minute” because the choice was authentic to the student, not so engineered by well-meaning parents. I’m suggesting that it will be a happier result and better education if the student feels they “own” their search (with guidance from parents, but not heavy-handed guidance). I’d rather see someone rejoice over gaining admission to Northwestern (for example…) than feel they gamed their way into Cornell (for example…) by never trying for Yale (for example…). A student’s pride and feelings do play a role. That pride extends to the memory of their search process, and not just where they finally send in a deposit.</p></li>
<li><p>The OP asks a valid question based on statistics and logic. What if one feels the chances could be improved by generating an ED application, even if one harbors a somewhat compromised opinion of the school? I can envision a household feeling uncertain, given all this reading of uber-competition everywhere. I would suggest, however, that the way to address that uncertainty is not to manufacture an ED choice, but instead to add more places to the list and apply everywhere RD; tough it out and wait for April 1. Add on some more applications that are “reach” (even wild reaches, it’s for April 1, after all) and more “matches” that you genuinely admire. While you’re at it, add 2 more safeties, for this reason: what seems disappointing in October might be soundly appreciated after April 1. In other words, expand the student’s cushion rather than trying to thread a needle to arrive at a place the student might only partially wish to attend. Odds are, that way there will be some choices in April that include several of these schools you now feel are “slightly less”, but with some good fortune there will be a wild surprise among them that was always a dream-idea. And if necessary, attend the safety, which remains the “most important” college on any student’s list. If the student created the entire list, had a range of places, had authentic reasons to attend every school on the list, then I think in the end the student will welcome the September following senior year with a fuller heart.</p></li>
</ol>

44

<p>After reading this topic I feel almost obligated to respond to it. Yes, POIH, purely statistically there is an advantage to applying ED. The stats bear that out quite well. I’m not denying that there you get a boost for showing how committed you are to said school, but on the opposite end of the spectrum you have to realize that the self-selective nature of ED makes for a much smaller but also much stronger pool of applicants. At some schools like NYU there’s a definite statement by the adcoms where they will take you if you are qualified ED, whereas with RD it’s harder because they have a limited number of spaces. This does not apply to any of the ivies as far as I’ve heard, because their ED pools are so qualified they’d be forced to take almost all of them.</p>

<p>I’m not going to argue with your choices of schools to apply to though, because you seem set on forcing your child into a HYPSM. I’ll just say I disagree with your appraisal of the other ivies as being the “lower” ones. Each ivy has a different personality which is evident if you spent any substantial amount of time on their campus. Your daughter may find that she loves Dartmouth or Brown far more than Harvard, for example, which isn’t an uncommon occurrence (One of my friends sure did).</p>

45

<p>Russ456:
“POIH: I feel sorry for you. Whether or not I agree with your assessment, it’s a shame people waste time attacking you. If they disagree with you, they should just ignore your post. It seems you are a target and may want to come back under a different user name. The irony is the only reason I see your posts is because the attackers keep bumping you up to the top of the thread list (I rarely look beyond the first page). Good luck to you and your daughter!”</p>

<p>I don’t think I need to change my Id for any reason. I do believe in my thoughts and stand by those. Even if I change my online Identity I won’t be able to change my thoughts and it will come up under another identities.</p>

<p>But If you go thru all the posts you will find very diverse attitude towards the ED. That is what I was trying to achieve. My purpose on this board is to discuss out my thoughts with other parents/students. Since most of my friends have younger kids, so I’m just unable to get a right group to discuss these things out. I cannot do the same with my Daughter’s school parents because of the competition.</p>

<p>So this is the best forum to get information.</p>

<p>Thanks to all for the wonderful information. I do think now that it might be better to apply to your dream school early which in my daughter case will be Yale SCEA and sit back and apply to others during RD. Yes, things will start to become more and more clearer as the Junior year go by starting september and the strategy will change accordingly too.</p>

46

<p>POIH: It is my understanding that Princeton has two admissions pools: one for engineering and one for everything else. I know they have different applications. You might be better off applying to engineering, where they probably will be emphasizing academics more over other qualities than for the liberal arts candidates.</p>

47

<p>A word about ED applicant pools…</p>

<p>Several folks have mentioned that these pools are “self-selective” and also “much stronger” than regular decision pools. While I would agree that the former is true, the latter is not in most cases. At every institution I have read at, the ED candidates have been weaker <em>as a pool</em> of applicants. While the students we admit in ED tend to be quantitatively and qualitatively similar to those admitted in RD, the overall pool in ED is weaker. Again, Chris Avery’s “The Early Admissions Game” highlights this well…at some institutions, this is not the case it seems (the ever-unpredictable Brown and Chicago, for example), but at most universities and LACs, research (and anecdotal evidence from colleagues/peers in my experience) suggests that ED pools are weaker in general.</p>

48

<p>I say only apply ED for a school if it’s your first choice. who knows what could happen if you don’t apply for a school because you think you can’t make it.</p>

49

<p>I had a chance to attend the Senior Dad Cocktail last weekend at my D’s school and found the following information.</p>

<ol>
<li>Shocked to learn that no one is matriculating to Columbia this year.</li>
<li>If we divide the top schools into 3 categories
Cat A: HYPMSC
Cat B: U. Penn, Brown, Columbia</li>
</ol>

<p>Cat C: Duke, Cornell, JHU, NW, U. Chicago, W.S at SL, CMU, Emory etc.</p>

<p>Then only students who apply ED to Cat B are the one matriculating because all those who got into Cat B RD also got into Cat A RD. Those who couldn’t get into Cat A didn’t get into Cat B either and have to join Cat C colleges.</p>

<ol>
<li>So the matriculation rate in Cat A and Cat C has increased but has decreased in Cat B.</li>
</ol>

<p>Just my observation. In case anyone else observed similar things at their child school.</p>

50

<p>If you put it that way (in terms of categories), I know many people who almost turned down Cat A schools for Cat C schools. (Duke over Harvard is the most noteworthy one)</p>

<p>And at my school, alot of people are going to Cat B schools. I happen to be one of those people. I didn’t even apply to most Cat A schools because I didn’t want to go.</p>

<p>And for the record, the matriculation rate at Penn went up to a record high this year.</p>

<p>But as for applying ED to schools for the sake of getting in, I say don’t do it. So many people are applying ED to schools just to know earlier. But that’s not what ED was meant for. It was meant to relieve stress on those people who know what school they definitely want to go to. I didn’t apply ED because I didn’t know where I wanted to go. I had a rough idea, but deciding between the 3 schools was hard. I almost applied to Stanford EA, because it was EA, and I could easily just say no if I liked another school better. Someone once told me, “Why wouldn’t you apply ED? It’s like someone saying ‘Come to my school and I’ll make it easier for you’”. And that’s not the correct way to think about it… So many people are taking advantage of the ED process, and risking their happiness to do so.</p>

51

<p>Did it occur to anyone that a school may sense that you’re not devoted to them? If you’re applying to a school ED simply to get in to an Ivy and not because you are absolutely in love with that school, then someone is bound to pick up on it.</p>

<p>And if you’re part of the 50% of ED applicants who are deferred, or, god forbid, the 25% who are flat out rejected, applying ED will yield you no real advantage.</p>

<p>ED was, for me, a way to get into my top choice school without having to write extra-applications. I am more than confident that I would’ve gotten in regular AND that I would’ve gotten into the rest of the schools on my list.</p>

<p>If anything applying ED to a school that is number 2/3 on your list would only hurt your chances.</p>

52

<p>Parent - while I certainly wish you and your daughter the best of luck in navigating the often-stressful current of college admissions, I have to join those who are trying to make you understand that your grasp of statistics isn’t as comprehensive or as insight-producing as you might think. Case in point: you seem to be unaware of the existence of one-eighth of your beloved Ivy League.</p>

53

<p>I think you should apply ED not only if it is truly your first choice, but also if you are a super strong (“likely” - as much as that can be assessed these days) candidate for that institution. </p>

<p>If ED applicant pools are on average weaker than that of RD, it only means that the students who would have been admitted anyway for RD are let in early (and the weaker candidates are easier to quickly reject). </p>

<p>ED could be an advantage if you have exceptional statistics, but as a result of the maddening current admissions climate you are at risk (like everyone else except for maybe people like Chelsea Clinton) for losing to the numbers game later on. I think top notch candidates are wise to go ED to their favorite school, because it just has to be more likely that they will be given a good look over and a fair shot.</p>

<p>I don’t think that candidates who are not in the super strong category should waste their time, because I think the whole admissions process can be brutal enough (why make it harder on yourself?). Then again, it’s their choice. And who knows…If you really love a school that much, why not roll the dice? I probably wouldn’t, but I can certainly see why someone would want to try.</p>

54

<p>By separating into categories you make it sound like its terrible to go to a school like Duke or Cornell or Chicago.</p>

<p>I don’t recommend trying to game the system - it won’t work, trust me. Schools like Penn/Columbia have alot of athletes and serious developmental legacy cases applying early. To provide an anecdote, I applied early decision to Penn this year, with <em>legacy</em>, and I had fairly solid stats (Valedictorian with 2150), but still deferred. Getting into a school like Penn/Columbia will be tougher than you think. Getting into Columbia right now is as tough as getting into any of the ivies</p>

55

<p>SHOCKED why are you shocked about no one going to columbia maybe no one wanted to go there this year, it happens</p>

<p>And “have to join” Cat C schools is a very condesending remark…when you speak like that, I figure nothing we say will ever change your mind…oh, poor soul has to go to a Cat C school…has it not occured to you that they may LOVE that wonderful school?</p>

<p>For the 200th time, not everyone on the planet wants to go to an Ivy, believe it or not</p>

56

<p>comet88 – Unfortunately, the OP believes it IS terrible to attend one of the “Category C” schools. (read the early part of the thread) My S would <em>hardly</em> consider it “settling” to attend one of the Cat C schools – a couple of them are at the top of his list, having sat in on classes, talked to profs and students, etc. </p>

<p>Informed choice is the only way to go here. Prestige seeking is not going to make for a happy student in the long run.</p>

57

<p>I thought Columbia was an Ivy!</p>

58

<p>It is. (10 char)</p>

59

<p>POIH has just lost an immense amount of credibility due to Post #49.</p>

<p>Does it ever occur to you people that his daughter goes to a school with excellent connections to the Ivy League? It may surprise some of you with his condescending remarks about the rest of the Ivy League but quite frankly, I’ve seen this attitude many times before. POIH lives in a world where a top school is commensurate of success. If you’ve read The Overachievers, POIH’s reaction as a parent should be hardly surprising. And perhaps due to his daughter’s very privileged circumstances, she may after all, be entitled to an Ivy League.</p>

60

<p>while our HS sends plenty of kids to HPYSM et al every year, Columbia is a special case; as they say in real estate, location, location, location. Unlike POIH, the fact that Columbia is in a certain football conference is meaningless to most kids. Columbia’s BIG draw is NYC, and it takes a certain kind of kid to want to live in Manhattan for four years. Obviously, many do, which also makes NYU so hot. However, many kids also do NOT want to be paupers while living in NYC (despite the fact that Columbia happens to be in a certain athletic conference). So, for me in SoCal, I’m rather surprised at the kids that DO apply to Columbia from here – good for them, if that’s what they want.</p>