<p>I agree with many of the people posting. However, I will put it more bluntly. The initial post is garbage. Just to say there are lesser Ivy league school or Cat.A, Cat B. is a stupid statement. Colleges should not be considered brand names. Students are going to names instead of colleges. They should seek the right fit not the right name. I would like someone to prove that if the same student went to Georgetown he/she would be 20% less educated ( whatever that would mean)than if he/she went to Princeton.</p>
<p>ParentofIvyHope, do you really think that COLUMBIA offers less opportunities than Princeton? Penn and Dartmouth less than MIT? You’re trying to compare Willie Mays to Ted Williams and Barry Bonds to Hank Aaron</p>
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<p>I completely agree. Dartmouth, Columbia, Princeton, MIT, and Stanford are all VERY different schools and offer different things from one another. Dartmouth is in the middle of nowhere, NH while Columbia is smack in the middle of NYC and Stanford is in sunny California. And while some may say environment does not affect performance, I would have to say if I person isn’t happy in the environment they are in, they are more likely to feel depressed and therefore perform badly. In terms of education, these schools are also very different. First of all, Dartmouth is a heck of a lot smaller than say Stanford (Brown and Dartmouth are the closest you’ll get to a small LAC within the Ivy League, IMO, based solely on size). Dartmouth and Princeton also have a heck of lot less grads running around than MIT and Stanford which can be good and bad, depending how much attention is given to undergrads vs. grads. MIT is a tech school so it won’t fit the same people who would fit into the other schools. An english major, for example, may feel they fit better at Columbia or Dartmouth than at MIT. </p>
<p>To say any top tier school offers less opportunities than the other is simply ludacris. They all offer wonderful opportunities or else they wouldn’t be top tier schools. Honestly, who would go to Princeton if recruiters didn’t hire Princeton students for internships or if the school didn’t have the strong teaching staff it has? The same goes for other “lesser top tier schools”, a phrase oxymoronic in itself just like “lesser Ivy”.</p>
<p>What I am trying to get at is that different schools have different hooks and fit different people. It’s not as easy as people think it is to compare colleges with each other.</p>
<p>“Columbia is just about as hard to get into as any of the other Ivies”</p>
<p>Columbia is actually, statistically, the hardest Ivy to get into (8.9%) admit rate. Based purely on percentages alone, Columbia is on top. Out of 10 Princeton acceptances from my school, 8 also applied to Columbia and 6 were rejected from Columbia. Both Yale acceptances and a Harvard acceptance were respectively rejected/wait-listed by Columbia.</p>
<p>why do people answer this poster’s posts? every single thread authored by him/her manifests his obsession with rankings. this poster has said that he would not let his daughter go to the University of Chicago because he didn’t like it. He only cares about the name of the school so he can impress people. it is pathetic and depressing. stop indulging his ignorance and obsession with reputation. he knows absolutely NOTHING about any school except its ranking in USNEWs.</p>
<p>The thing that I don’t get is why POIH doesn’t just let the private school take care of it. That is a major benefit of the better private HS’s. They are highly motivated to get kids into highest possible ranked schools and do a good job of packaging the student. If you don’t trust the HS, then…</p>
<p>Outsouce it to a consultant. Once again, if you are as serious as you seem to be, and have money, just pay someone to get the job done.</p>
<p>I would love to leave it to my D high school but just don’t have the courage to leave it. I just don’t trust anyone else. I may leave it by next summer as all of SATs score be in by that time and picture will be much clearer about where my D stand and have a shot at.</p>
<p>Till than I may make some people mad listening to me as I don’t have any other outlet for my ignorance/stress over my D’s admissions.</p>
<p>actually, as a student with a perfect SAT, tons of extracurriculars, and loads of APs…who totally got killed by college admissions this year (messed up my strategy by applying early to the wrong place)…I totally agree with ParentofIvyHope. Good job, whoever you are…you’re right that kids need to learn to play the game to get what they want. i too got little support from my high school.</p>
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<p>If you don’t trust the private school, then post #38’s advice regarding a private counselor seems to me to be spot on.</p>
<p>As far as having an outlet for your concerns, there are worse things then posting on the internet. Specifically, I would go easy on your daughter. I am sure that she already knows your desires and certainly doesn’t need any additional pressures. The more you can do to keep her relaxed and confident the better.</p>
<p>In response to post 68,
I don’t think the objections being raised have to do with POIH’s reaching out for feedback, with the intent of supporting his daughter. I think they have to do with the content of the questions, & the direction in which they seem to go.</p>
<p>You yourself brought up helpful, practical information – the kind of information POIH should be looking for: (What are the important elements to consider in one’s strategy?) Other posters are exasperated because the strategy just keeps centering around 2 things: rankings, and predictability – 2 factors that are NOT essential to college planning, & which cannot be manipulated or controlled. Even an ED strategy is not solidly predictable, as you yourself found out.</p>
<p>To be “stressed,” as POIH just said, when the student is still a sophomore, & <em>firm</em> asnwers are being sought, is a waste of energy & not realistic. This is a good planning time, yes, but planning for a DIVERSE COLLEGE LIST, based on the student’s inclinations, if she is sure of those, or tentative inclinations if she is unsure. It is not a time for planning a rigid college list based on rankings & on supposedly projectible results from lists of high schools. Sorry, one admission year can be drastically different from the admission year just preceding or just following. 8 admitted one yr. to Harvard, 0 admitted the next year, etc. Or 9 total to HYP one year, admissions only to Dartmouth & Cornell & CMU the next year. Or even if one can always count on a few to H every year: What makes the OP believe that his daughter will be included in those few? </p>
<p>And although I do NOT like to compare college admissions to a lottery, because it bears little resemblance to that (except that a lot of people play), the approach he is taking makes no more sense than picking tonight’s numbers based on the last winning draw.</p>
<p>You…can’t…control…the…outcome. You only have much control over the <em>process</em>. Concentrate on the <em>process,</em> and stop asking others to predict the future for you. It’s ridiculous.</p>
<p>Here’s why I feel OK with ParentofIvyHope’s strategy:</p>
<p>I myself visited dozens of colleges and eventually cut most of them off my list (most of the US News top schools came off the list) right away because of “fit.” But, after receiving my disappointing college decisions, I regretted what I had done. Now, I’m stuck at my backup school, one that is certainly great…but not that great. I’d be happier at a “better school,” one of those top US News schools that I took off my list arbitrarily because I felt I had “too many high-ranked schools”…Brown and Columbia are two specific schools I visited and crossed off (for stupid, arbitrary reasons) that now come to mind and I regret every day that I didn’t apply to them.</p>
<p>Basically, my point is: apply first to all the top schools, and then once you get your decisions, decide whether they are worth going to. You don’t know where you’re gonna get in; chances are you’re gonna get rejected mostly. DON’T limit your choices at the time of applications just because you feel guilty about “fit” or “prestige whoring.” You can decide whether a school is right for you after applying and getting in. Once decision time rolls around and you realize you don’t have many choices left, you begin to wish you HAD applied to more of the better schools after all. I sacrificed quality for fit in the name of being “sensible” and “non-rankings-driven”…and I regret it.</p>
<p>It’s true that Williams and Duke and Cornell are just as good, probably, as Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Stanford…but if you don’t apply to all of them…you’re robbing yourself of choices. And hey: I’d immediately take HYPS over those other schools (Williams, Duke, NWestern, etc.) while still acknowledging that those lower-ranked schools are just as good. Don’t lie–wouldn’t you?</p>
<p>well, in answer to #71, it all depends… suppose I was interested in a major such as Biomedical engineering; well, Duke is obviously #1 (again USNews) in the field. If I wanted to go Pre-Med, I would probably be much more successful if I went to Northwestern’s Honors Program in Medical Education than if I went to Harvard and majored in…say… Biology (or w/e the equivalent major is).</p>
<p>Therefore, it’s all a matter of perspective – what exactly are you looking for in a college?</p>
<p>If rank is all that is important, then for sure apply to HYPSM, but doing a bit of research may turn up some schools that may be in the “oh man, I have to go to category 3 :(” pile, but might lead you to be a more successful individual in the future.</p>
<p>Well, there’s my $0.02</p>
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<p>To the OP:</p>
<p>So. About ED.</p>
<p>Echoing many of the other posters here, applying ED is all a matter of “fit” (lol, i sound so cliched). Think of it this way, if your daughter applies to a Top 10 School according to USNews, ultimately it will be her, not you that goes to the school for the next 4 years of her life. Therefore, it probably would be most prudent to take this summer to truly decide a school that your daughter would be absolutely comfortable going to. Sure, it might be great to say at parties, “Oh, my kid is at <insert high-ranked=”" school=“” here=“”>…", but it could be that your daughter is not happy about where she is going.</insert></p>
<p>So, while Early programs certainly great opportunities if one is absolutely certain about a school, one must be ABSOLUTELY certain that one wants to go there (all of the above is for ED, other schools that use EA and SCEA are non-binding, so you don’t need to be completely sure – use EA and SCEA as an early indicator of what you can do to improve for RD (if you don’t get accepted, obviously)).</p>
<p>b4nnd20: There is a difference between arbitrarily cutting top schools because of little things because you think you have too many, and applying to ALL the top schools. It’s possible to have schools that fit AND are top schools. For example, if I hadn’t gotten into Wes ED I would have applied to Brown, Pomona, Carleton and Northwestern as my reach-y schools…schools that fit me and are fantastic. </p>
<p>I don’t support the apply to all top schools thing precisely BECAUSE of the fact that yes, if they got into HYPS many students would go…even if it was wrong for them. For example, Wes is my perfect school. I know it. That’s why I applied ED. I wasn’t even going to apply to HYPS because they weren’t what I wanted. But if somehow I’d received an acceptance to Yale the same day I go my acceptance to Wes? Yes, I would have had a really hard time turning down Yale. I might have even gone, and it would have been the wrong decision for me.</p>
<p>For another example, I had a friend who didn’t do a great job with her college list, and he choice came down to Duke and Oberlin: Duke more of an academic powerhouse, Oberlin more of a fit. She chose Duke, and wasn’t that happy there. </p>
<p>Now, obviously POIH’s child does want to go to Yale. But the point still stands: only apply to the schools she would actually be happy going to, because otherwise when it comes down to a choice between prestige and fit, she (just like many people: these things matter in people’s minds!) might choose prestige over fit, and that, IMO, is a really bad idea. </p>
<p>(Note: And obviously, I’m not saying that a school that doesn’t even make the US World News rankings should automatically be chosen over Harvard just because it seems like a better fit, but the basic point stands) </p>
<p>And to make this more on topic: you CERTIANLY shouldn’t apply ED to a shcool just because you think it’s the highest prestige school you can get into ;)</p>
<p>I agree with the original point, that applying ED to huge reach schools may be a waste. But the solution is not to apply early to a “lower prestige” school. The solution is to keep hunting for another school that is a fantastic fit. </p>
<p>But you really only should back off ED for the top tier schools if you don’t have a reasonable (10% for HYPSM) shot at getting in.</p>
<p>… i think the point almost everyone is missing here is that 10% is the AVERAGE chance for an applicant.</p>
<p>College admissions does not conform to the laws of probability. To say that everyone has a 10% chance of admissions is neglecting the fact that EVERYONE has different probabilities. There are some candidates who have a 75%+ chance at HYPMS (I’m thinking a girl at my school who got into all 5 w/ Intel, RSI, perfect SAT, perfect GPA, varsity debate captain). And on the other end of the spectrum, you have people who have no shot in hell. </p>
<p>BOttom line: IF YOU ARE COMPETITIVE… Apply early (by competitive I mean if your scores/stats fall in top top 25-30% of the school’s published SAT/GPA ranges and you know that your teachers love you and etc. etc.) Don’t kid youself, even at schools like HYPMS, the early admit rate is north of 20%.</p>
<p>For regular admission: 10%=above average=reasonable. Legacies, recruitable atheletes, and Intel-winners all have very good chances of getting in. But they are averaged into the overall admit rate. So the chance of getting in for an “average” HYPSM candidate is actually less than the 10%.</p>
<p>For ED, apply the same principle, except in this case it’s about 20%. If you don’t stand a “reasonable”, i.e. about 20%, shot of getting in, you may want to keep looking to see if you can find another school that is perfect for you.</p>
<p>I was asking for the feedback about how to access whether or not my D has any shot at HYPS or just rely on the college counslar at her school.</p>
<p>Because if in reality she doesn’t have a good chance at HYPS but a better chance getting ED at Columbia and U.Penn.</p>
<p>Then why not apply ED. She may choose Yale over HPS but she would choose Columbia/U. Penn over any other college (except MIT/CIT).</p>
<p>That means she will be happy to be at either Yale or Columbia or U. Penn.</p>
<p>In that case when one should decide to not take a chance at Yale and apply ED at others.</p>
<p>i.e if provide in quantitative numbers What from the following should strike off Yale
SAT1 < 2200
Any SAT II subject < 750.
Unweighted GPA < 3.9
No of APs with (4/5) < 6
Didn’t qualify for NMS (National Merit Semifinalists)</p>
<p>number of AP’s is not that important…it’s more important that you do well in the AP tests that you choose to take though. I only took two AP tests after my junior year, math and chem, but I got a 5 on both.</p>
<p>Since you are a science major, your science and math SATII’s should be high but I don’t think 750 is any kind of cut-off. It sounds like your daughter goes to a strong school, so getting 2-3 B’s won’t hurt her. It’s more important I think for you recs to be outstanding. It’s important for her to qualify for NMS. Typically, the recs have the teachers rate how good the student is–that is, the top student they ever had, top 1%, top 5%, etc. These recs typically come from the junior year. Tell her to go all out in her classes next year. She’ll need 3 recs probably from her classes and one from her counselor.</p>
<p>No matter what, though, she should apply anyway. It’s better to wait for her stats before you decide to apply ED to anything but her top choice.</p>
<p>Collegealum314: Thanks for your post. This post #78 is the most constructive post, I came across on this board.</p>
<ul>
<li>SAT1 < 2200 - As a general guideline, at least 2200 is recommended to have a chance at Yale, unless you have something special elsewhere on your application. It is, however, not impossible to be accepted with less.</li>
<li>Any SAT II subject < 750 - I wouldn’t say 750 is an absolute cut-off, the higher the better, of course, but one low(-ish) SAT II would not disqualify anyone. It also depends how many you took and what you got in those. 800/800/780/780/740 would still be better than 750/750/750.</li>
<li>Unweighted GPA < 3.9 - Depends what kind of school you go to, where you rank, and what your recs say about you performance.</li>
<li>No of APs with (4/5) < 6 - Again, depends on the school. If the school offered 2 APs and you took them both and got 5s, you would still be OK.</li>
<li>Didn’t qualify for NMS (National Merit Semifinalists) - As with SAT scores.</li>
</ul>
<p>Not meeting one or more of the criteria you have listed would not automatically mean your daughter has no chance of being accepted at Yale. Every year, Yale accepts people with good, but not outstanding, stats because they have something special in their ECs, they get good recommendations, etc, and rejects people with perfect or near-perfect stats. </p>
<p>My advice to you and your daughter would be to stop trying to play games with stats and instead focus on making her application the best it can be in those more intangible areas. Work on getting good recs, as collegealum314 has said, and if she wants to do engineering, go out and do some engineering. Take part in some competitions, find an internship, develop an engineering project outside school. Being able to show that she has passion, initiative, talent, will take her a lot further than an extra 10 points here or there on her SATs.</p>