Would you let a super-smart kid take easy courses in high school?

Parents Forum
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Two years ago I posted this thread http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/2082476-0-1-vs-1-kids-what-did-you-do-differently.html asking for advice on my then 7th grade S who is super smart (well into the top 0.1% based on his neuro-psych testing) but has an IEP for ADHD and executive functioning challenges. Now he’s coming towards the end of 9th grade, I thought it would be useful to give an update and ask some more questions.

Because our relationship with his elementary school had broken down, he moved to a small private school for 8th grade, which he hated because he had no friends there. After half a year of him simply refusing to cooperate, we told him he could go back to the public high school with his friends if he completed the year, and he finished off the year’s curriculum in about 3.5 months (it was one on one so went at his pace).

This year has not gone too badly at high school - unlike his elementary school they are pretty cooperative (apart from one staff member who said he didn’t need an IEP because his grades were fine and he was in advanced classes) and are at least trying to comply with his IEP, with teachers reminding him to write down homework, and a study skills class to check up that he has completed his work. He still misses homework sometimes, but his executive functioning skills have definitely improved over the course of the year as he has got used to the teachers’ demands and started writing things in a planner and using Canvas to check up on what is due.

He is in advanced English (typical for the top ~30% of the class) and Algebra 2/Trig (2 years ahead, fewer than 5% of the freshmen are in that class) and then the rest are regular classes (not streamed for freshmen). He’s got a mix of As and Bs: most of the regular courses are easy As (he’s particularly enjoyed Physics and Latin), with the exception of History (because he dislikes writing and does the minimum possible), while in English and Math he is A/B borderline (Bs first semester, not clear yet how the second semester will come out) because of missing homework and in English his minimalist approach to writing assignments. But he has enjoyed being with his friends, playing sport, etc. even though he still says he hates school. He does almost no work at home because he manages to get pretty much all of his homework done in the 40 minutes they have spare each morning in study skills and much prefers videogaming (and if that isn’t available/allowed then he reads voraciously and can easily knock off a 200 page book in a few hours). But he is tired after school (understandably as concentrating requires a lot of effort) and doesn’t want to do anything else.

So now he is faced with choosing classes for next year. We’ve already decided that he should do regular history rather than AP, but he would prefer to do all regular courses, in particular regular English II and pre-Calc rather than advanced English II and Calc AB, which would be the next sequence courses. Some students do go to those courses in sophomore year, if they are out of their depth in the advanced courses, but he wants to do that because he wants an easy life, and doesn’t want to do courses that are “hard” (though this seems to be more related to how much homework is needed, because he can complete the homework for regular courses in about 5 minutes). He would very likely get As in the regular courses, but Bs in the advanced courses. That would be almost certain in English, due to the volume and standard of essay writing expected, while in math it would depend on whether he did all the homework thoroughly and on time (he usually gets an A in math tests). Calc AB in particular has the most homework of any course in our high school (supposedly 90-120 minutes per class, which is every two days due to the block schedule, although 45-60 mins is probably closer to the mark for a strong student), but my view is that it is therefore better to get it out of the way in sophomore year rather than him feeling even more stressed in junior year when he has many other things to do. And taking the lower level choices might limit his options later on in high school and when applying to college. On the other hand he is two years ahead in math at the moment, so could still complete Calc AB and Calc BC during high school even doing pre-calc first.

Any thoughts about how much to push him to do the advanced courses (parents do have the final say and can override both his decision and even that of the counselor, who we will hear from this week, though since his teachers are unlikely to say he is struggling, I’d expect the counselor is most likely to recommend the advanced class)? And anyone with experience of unmotivated smart kids - did they grow out of it during high school? Did they find ECs (sport or other things) that they enjoyed and were motivated by? What did they do after high school?

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Isn’t the usual next course after algebra 2 supposed to be precalculus, not calculus? Or is he in accelerated math courses (not just in grade levels ahead, but where the course covers material faster)?

Also, students two grades ahead in math should be the ones who find math to be easy A courses, so it is possible that he was pushed ahead more than appropriate for him.

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The regular sequence is Algebra 1 to Geometry to Algebra 2 to pre-Calc. He is in the accelerated sequence which if you were 1 year ahead (ie did Algebra 1 in 8th grade) would be Enriched Geometry then Algebra 2/Trig then Calc AB then Calc BC. That’s typical for the top 10% of students. But he did Algebra 1 in 7th grade and Geometry in 8th grade so is 2 years ahead.

He’s able to get an A in the tests (though he often loses marks for doing the problem in his head and then not showing the working), but if you don’t complete/hand in half the homework then you won’t get an A for the course, especially as he adamantly refuses to do anything the teacher says is optional for extra credit.

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Some differences, but many similarities with one of my collegekids, for whom daily bitty pieces of work were anathema (like your son, she would come top of the class on the test, but would lose points for late/incomplete daily homework).

Some thoughts based on our experience:

*look at the individual teachers he would have for each class. We found that made a disproportionate difference for collegekid- even more than the subject.

*as I know you know, if UK/IRL/EU is the destination, getting APs earlier is advantageous, as unconditional offers are possible.

The tiredness after school is real- but it’s one type of tiredness. On the advice of other parents (whose kids had similar challenges), we mandated that there had to be *an activity. It worked so well that we mandated the same for siblings. I saw theater (technical side), running, swimming, scouts, Model UN, food bank volunteer, and dog walker work for different kids. We found that not only was there energy for a different type of activity, but that the 2nd activity tended to make her a cheerier soul, in no small part b/c it was so different than the school day.

*Summer internships / activities that were interesting to her were hard to find/get (esp before 16), but oh-so-worth it.

Don’t underestimate the role that simple time will play: he (and his brain) *will mature. It might be slow or fitful, but it does happen!

Having said all that, I would not be receptive to an argument from a 15 yo who wants ‘easy’ classes so that there is more time for video games and girlfriends. Even if you are so financially secure that he won’t ever have to earn a living, imo it is simply bad for humans to not have a plan, a project, a something beyond themselves that they want to achieve. And if indeed he will have to earn his way in the world, 15 is plenty old enough to be starting to face up to that reality. He may be seriously unmotivated by school, and that’s totally fair: schools are built for those inside the Bell Curve. It can be a painful and demotivating process for kids outside the Curve. But if he isn’t interested in anything except hanging out, that’s a different (and harder) question.

Our one always loved history / politics, and read quite widely in the subject from a young age. It all clicked together the summer between grades 11 & 12, when she abruptly pivoted from the US-centric list of colleges that she had worked up with her GC, dumped all but one of them, and added 5 colleges in 4 countries (all subject-dominated courses, vs the US model). She ended up at Oxford, where she soared.

ps, does your son type all of his writing assignments? That made a world of difference in getting collegekid to not skimp on essays. A pal of hers dictated all her essays, then used a voice translator and just tidied up the inevitable errors.

5

I would explain the tradeoffs. Choosing a more rigorous course now will give him more options in the future but if he is ok with those doors closing, then it is up to him. Students rarely do well in courses they were forced to take over objections.

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Does he want to go to college after HS? If yes, taking the easy path isn’t going to prepare him for the necessary study skills he’ll need later on. Might be a better message to hear from the GC. Can you talk to the counselor before they meet with your son?

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We declined to have one of our kids in accelerated math. We just said no. So that kid took college bound level math courses all the way through high school.

We also let both of our kids take culinary arts…which they both loved.

I’m not sure what you are aiming for. Is it solid instruction in these courses? Is It A grades? Is it the strongest curriculum so this kid can apply to very competitive colleges?

In your case, I think you need to look at the whole child…not just at how smart he is. If he probably won’t do the required work in some course…he probably needs some “guidance” with this. Does your HS have a homework club? Supervised study hall where this can get done? Does your kid have a special education case manager that can help with this?

Or maybe he needs to develop the independence…I can’t answer that question…with some graduated guidance.

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I don’t see the reason to force him down the accelerated math path if he doesn’t want to go there. He’s already going to be ahead of most if he does precalc sophomore year. What is the end game? This kid doesn’t sound like a candidate for T20 schools. Those kids have all A’s or close to it and are highly self-motivated. I just don’t see the reason to push him on this front.

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It seems odd for the school to offer an accelerated one year algebra 2 / trigonometry / precalculus course, but then require calculus to be slow paced over two years.

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I understand from the OPs previous thread that they feel S23 would really thrive in the extremely focused UK system (Cambridge, or maybe Oxford - remember, the place for the effortless genius) but, until then, needs to somehow survive in the very broadly based US system (and survive with a chance at, if not the top 20 US schools, at least something like state flagships with room to grow) AND get in enough maths to be a viable candidate for Cambridge in 3 years.

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OP, I do think you need to first count your blessings that he has friends and hobbies he likes, and gets his exercise in for his health. It is so easy for these children to disappear into computer-aided loneliness.

I know he needs to have at least calc BC and another 2 science APs by his senior year to have a chance at UK unis, but is there a way to “decelerate” him as long as possible until then, to give maturity and executive function a chance to kick in at the tail end of puberty? Right now it sounds like pushing the high EF classes might be a recipe for disaster.

I seem to recall you’re in California. So I’d look at the endgame. Make a matrix of the classes he needs for the next 3 years to apply to the UCs, and the grades and rigour he needs for the next 2 years to have a chance at at least the second tier. Then insert the APs he needs for the UK - one version for getting the APs in by junior year, another version for getting them in by senior year, for a conditional offer (I assume he is the type for whom getting 5s are a given).

Plan out the schedule which allows for the most time for growth in maturity and executive function.

Show it to him, tell him why you feel this is the schedule which best prepares him for future happiness and success, tell him the class choices are non negotiable, but the grades are up to him.

Have a glass of whisky or poison of your choice and hope for the best.

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Nothing motivated my smart by unmotivated kid like a greasy, smelly, hot minimum wage job where he was surrounded by actual adults who were there because they actually had no other options. If your son is too young for a “regular” job in your state, can you encourage him to join a painting crew, landscaping crew, or just mow lawns for the summer? Work as grounds crew for a YMCA camp? Anything hot and unpleasant which doesn’t pay well, preferably requiring a uniform?

Mine had an epiphany on Day 2 and never looked back. And wrote his college essays on how to get grease stains out of a polyester uniform when you get home from work at midnight but need to be back on your shift by 10 am or get “docked”.

A reality check might help your son see what the inflection points in his life look like…

Why did my son end up in this job? Because when we nagged late winter/early spring to follow up on the cool internships/jobs/etc. that his guidance counselor suggested he procrastinated and did not. Because when one of his teachers made a phone call to get him an interview for a really interesting job-- kid decided it would involve waking up too early in the summer. And since our wallets were shut (no fun programs, no travel, no hanging out with his buddies-- it was “job or die” time) he ended up with the only thing he could find in June- pushing a mop at a greasy spoon where they weren’t too careful about checking age and OSHA regulations.

He might like work- which is an education in and of itself- or he may hate it (which might motivate him to get in gear academically once he connects the dots). But I’d take either outcome as a victory.

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“What is the end game? This kid doesn’t sound like a candidate for T20 schools.“

I don’t know what the end game will be, but that’s certainly true. Unhooked kids from our high school don’t get into T20 colleges anyway, they mostly go to UCB/UCLA. But he’s unlikely to have the ECs for that.

OTOH my gut feel is that with good AP results (and a lot more maturity), he would still be a strong candidate for UK colleges. Our neighbor’s ADHD D didn’t really grow up until after junior year of HS, and had an unsatisfactory outcome from her (admittedly somewhat eclectic) set of US college applications, but was delighted to get an interview at Oxford and decided to go to St Andrews for computer science sight unseen (which she loves).

The question is whether something similar clicks in a couple of years, like with @collegemom3717 ’s D. If it does then it would be best not to eliminate options now. But who knows? A year ago he would say he didn’t want to go to college. Now his friends talk about college and he sees his older siblings enjoying themselves there and I think he does see college in his future, probably doing something in STEM. However we’d be happy for him to go to his sister’s college (Utah), which he would certainly get into and where he would enjoy the skiing. And if things click sooner, then the UCs don’t look at freshman grades, so UCSB might not be out of reach.

“if he isn’t interested in anything except hanging out, that’s a different (and harder) question.”

He’s very shy, especially in unfamiliar social situations, although ironically is always the one to organize and direct the group of players during a video game. Never hangs out with friends (other than virtually in video games), especially not girls, and hasn’t even been to see our neighbor’s S in person in a few months (but plays with him online every day). But I don’t see that as particularly unusual, my parents said I disappeared into my room to play on my (very early) personal computer at 13 and they didn’t see me except for meals for four years (I’m still shy at social events, but the opposite in work situations). He has enjoyed organized sports in HS, we are insisting he does a sport each term.

“look at the individual teachers he would have for each class. We found that made a disproportionate difference for collegekid- even more than the subject.”

Great advice, we’ve seen that in the past. His 4th grade math teacher treated him basically as a TA for the math tiles they did several times a week (competitive team based problem solving) and he loved that. This year he’s loved Latin because of the teacher, who is great fun and again thinks he’s amazing (S can memorize the grammar and vocab easily and gets 100% on everything). We need to figure out if there’s a math/science teacher who will do the same next year and maybe take him under his wing a bit.

“It seems odd for the school to offer an accelerated one year algebra 2 / trigonometry / precalculus course, but then require calculus to be slow paced over two years.”

Effectively it’s three compressed sequential courses (Enriched Geometry, Algebra 2/Trig, Calc AB), which is why Calc AB is onerous, but yes Calc BC then becomes a very easy course for senior year. The kids who get there have good depth and many of them get 5s on the Calc BC exam. Science oriented students will often pair Calc BC with Physics C (taught by the same teacher). And college math (Calc 3 and Linear Algebra) is offered to seniors who’ve already completed Calc BC, though some take the easy option and do AP Stats instead.

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First, your IEP is a legally binding contract. Do not tolerate ANY teacher/administrator who is not in compliance. Complain in writing every time, for your student and the next student.

Smart kids are rewarded with more work. I’ve never been one to push but I refused to let my children take the regular class when school placement tests put them in advanced classes. However, at the high school level things get murkier because all decisions impact college. Our daughter had a little more going on in her IEP than your son does, so 9th gr she was enrolled in the classes she “placed” into–Honors Bio, Eng, and Geometry. For 10th grade we went with her interests. Science and Math continued on an AP path, History “placed” Honors, and English remained regular. Let me point out, ultimately she scored 720 in Eng on the SAT. She’s good at it but she doesn’t enjoy it. Once she expressed a preference for a future in the sciences we let everything else go. Junior/Senior year continued AP for Math and Sci, History was dropped, Eng was regular and she had some required nonsense courses to take for graduation.

Respect that your son has a preference for certain subjects. Are his college plans in alignment with yours? I wouldn’t allow a smart student to slide so that he has more time for video games but, I wouldn’t burden a smart student with an advanced schedule unless they were invested in the outcome. Does he take any electives? Does
he have a job? High school is more than academics and I would allow a “downgraded” academic schedule in trade for a job or band practice.

15

Wait UCB/UCLA are not T20? I thought they were.

As far as should we push. I honestly don’t know how to be a parent if not pushing, within reason of course. unmotivated kids are going to choose the least resistant path, we would do them a disservice if we don’t push them. Especially we know they are capable.

Having said that, i personally think an A for a regular class is better than a B for the advanced class. If you don’t think he can achieve A for the advanced class (whether history or English or otherwise), then maybe he isn’t ready.

Your school math curriculum is a little different than ours. Seems like you don’t have a precal level but mixing with the others. My HS freshman son is taking Honored Algebra 2 now (8th grade he took geometry). He is taking honor everything this year (English, history, bio, math, Spanish). Next year he will also take honor everything plus AP CS. Junior and senior he will have AP everything that is possible. he is in the math, physic chemistry CS track in addition to the core curriculum.

My challenge with him isn’t about rigor, but about the lack of passion. He is an excellent student and he puts minimal effort (I have almost never seen him do HW at home but his average is 99 out of 100 unweighted),. I would love to see him passionate about something, though. How do we “push” kids to have a passion”?

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[quote=“Nhatrang, post:15, topic:2084988”]

Depends on the ranking. In some they are, in some they’re just beyond T20. Either way, they’re still superb and selective schools.

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I’ll second this. I’ve seen oodles of unmotivated academically smart kids get the self motivation they need simply by seeing IRL how things turn out if they don’t do the “busy work” of school now. He’s going to have to get some self motivation. Let him try a job and see if he’s content doing that for the rest of his life. Some kids are. Fine. We need those jobs filled - it’s their niche. The vast majority of academically smart kids get on the job and then start looking around for something else to do with their lives and how to get there.

I even had one who updated me in a local mall one day after having graduated without applying himself and going out to work then. It took him two years to figure out he had done it to himself and could change it. He had to start at CC at that point, but that’s what CCs are for (in his situation - they have other uses of course). Once past CC he went on and got a Physics degree and a more fitting for his ability and desires job. Neither teachers nor parents could help him “see” it better than a mundane (for him) job could.

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My super smart but not always diligent son was more interested in more difficult classes. If the work was too easy, he shut down. However, he does not have ADHD and would do some homework.

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I am not at all sure that you should consider UK colleges-they require far more independence and initiative that their American counterparts, and there is not the same support structure for students. Just something to think about for the future.

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I agree with @roycroftmom . UK colleges are very much sink or swim. I have a lot of British nieces and nephews. They were always surprised at how far American students lagged behind. UK students start their majors immediately. It’s not a great system for students who might need a little longer to get motivated.

I’m not trying to be rude, but even if your son is super smart, it won’t be as important as him being willing to do the work. So don’t force him.

My son is dyslexic and dysgraphic. He is smart but much lazier than my daughter, and, of course, struggles more. For the most part, high school was about maintaining a balance between not letting him coast and and not stressing him out. And when he was a sophomore, I pushed too hard. I insisted he take Honors Chem. It was a disaster. The teacher was really hard. He moved down to regular chem, and had to take the C with him. He ultimately earned an A in regular chem, and it worked out, but I regret that I pushed too hard and caused him a lot of stress.