"You can't make me ... " YES, we can, but SHOULD we?

martharap · September 9, 2009, 9:37am

I sure do regret insisting that my son take Driver’s Ed and get his license. He didn’t want to. He said he didn’t want to drive, etc. etc. My husband and I told him it’s a skill he will need if he lives in the USA, outside a major metropolitan community. He understands that but still didn’t want to get his license. Long story short–he took the class, did well, got his license and has never driven since. This was 5 years ago. We, on the other hand, were shocked to find out that if he had a driver’s license our insurance company required that he be on our policy. So we have been paying a lot of money to insure our son, who has never driven since he took driver’s ed and who never wanted to drive in the first place.

I learned my lesson.

In terms of musical instruments–my parents let me quit piano lessons when I was a kid, and I really wish they hadn’t. Of course I didn’t want to practice and complained like crazy, but now, as an adult, I wish I had continued.

Queen_s_Mom · September 9, 2009, 9:47am

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with making a child continue, I just think that in the OP’s case, the child is playing another musical instrument and has many other activities to compensate.

My D(10yo) does not want to take piano anymore. I said fine, find another instrument and you can quit. She’s still taking piano even though practice is like pulling teeth.

I generally require my kids to take 1 physical thing and one musical thing. Everything else is up to them.

susanr64 · September 9, 2009, 9:58am

I agree kids need to do something, but what my son ended up doing was far different than what we had originally signed him up for. Through elementary school and middle school, he did baseball, soccer, guitar, and piano (not all at the same time). He played baseball until he no longer made the team (didn’t want to do the weight lifting), but then switched to Tae Kwon Do. He loves it, and is an instructor for younger kids at his studio. He never acclimated to guitar and piano. I asked him what he wanted to learn, and he said bagpipes. He is playing with a major pipe band in our local area. Make the kids do something other than play video games, but let them pick (as long as they don’t change their mind every other day).

IMHopeful · September 9, 2009, 10:03am

Advise from my mother – If you want to keep your kids out of trouble, keep them busy. I followed her advise and it worked for my kids.

My two daughters – now 18 and 22 – were required to participate in 3 ECs during middle school – something arts related, sports/physical, community service. D1 played violin, swim team, girl scouts. D2 played oboe, piano and sang in choir, dabbled in a different sport every season, and girl scouts. They were required to stick with whatever they chose for whatever time period was relevant (the season, the school year, the semester). If they wanted to quit after that, they could. They just needed to pick something else from the category. Interestingly, with the exception of D2 in sports, they pretty much stuck with what they originally picked because it was an interest, it was easier, they knew the routine, and had made friends. D2 just wasn’t into sports so kept trying different things to see if she could find something she liked. We went through swimming, softball, tennis, volleyball . . . you get the picture.

Just naturally, by the time they were going into high school, they had gravitated toward one category/activity that they were pretty passionate about. For D1 it was swimming. And when she decided to make a serious commitment to swimming, we allowed her to drop violin so she could devote more time it. (It was a sad day for me because she was really good at violin). She eventually gave up pretty much everything other than school work to focus on swimming. Her choice and we supported it wholeheartedly. She ended up swimming for USC and had a wonderful college experience as a student athlete. In retrospect, she did not have much of a well-rounded high school life. Had no social life in HS or college because of her work-out/practice schedule. But without the commitment and sacrifices she made, she would have never been able to swim at that level. She loved it, so no regrets.

D2 gravitated toward the arts. She ultimately gave up oboe because she took up theatre in high school. She gave up piano lessons (but kept playing) and sang in four choirs by the time she was a senior. Acting became her passion and she was Belle in the HS production of Beauty and the Beast. She is now a freshman in the BFA acting program at Illinois Wesleyan.

Sorry for the long post. But, I guess the point is – when they are young (elementary and middle school), make them participate in a variety of ECs, but let them be their choice. I think kids naturally gravitate to things that are of interest to them. Let them change if they want to, but make them live up to commitments they have made to team mates, instructors, parents, etc. Encourage them to find a passion that they want to commit focused time and attention to, but don’t force it. It may come naturally, it may not. We have known many kids who never focused in on any one thing, but were EC renaissance kids. They explored and dabbled in a lot of things and that was good for them.

For the OP - it sounds like your child is busy and has many activities that interest him. That would suggest that you could let him drop band. However, you did tell him when he started that he had to commit through 8th grade. I think sticking with that commitment is more important than whether he is or is not in band. I’d tell him he could quit after 8th grade if that is what he wants to do. Having been in band, and having had kids also in band/orchestra, the first years are hard – but it gets to be a lot of fun if you can stick with it for a bit longer. I’d only waiver if his participation is compromising his schoolwork.

TheGFG · September 9, 2009, 2:26pm

Sometimes kids know best the talent pool and political realities at the school, within a musical group, or on a particular team, and therefore understand better than parents what their prospects are to achieve their objectives with that activity. I don’t mean to suggest that it’s all about succeeding or being the best, but sometimes the student is looking for a particular result from participation. Maybe he wants to be first chair, become a soloist, make varsity, become the editor-in-chief, or just have fun. If he evaluates the situation and sees that he’s unlikely to achieve his goal, then he might decide he wants to switch EC’s or reduce his commitment level in order to focus his energies elsewhere. Many kids chose an activity for the fun quotient, and once it gets more serious or intense, they lose interest.

This was a major reason D switched sports. She was a soccer midfielder, but so were several teacher’s daughters and a policeman’s kid. Yes, she was the better player, but knowing the coach that wasn’t going to mean anything. She switched to cross-country and it was the best decision she ever made. We initially felt bad about “wasting” all those years of travel soccer, training sessions, and summer camps, but no more!

poetgrl · September 10, 2009, 12:12am

Kids do tend to start to “specialize” around 7th and 8th…With my kids, it was always sad for me that this happened, since they are so young, and I’m from the pick-up game in the park generation, the let’s put on a show, and when kids weren’t so scheduled and could actually pick up something new in high school and find out it was something they loved…Probably still happens every once in a while, now. For us, if we couldn’t ride our bikes? We weren’t going to be doing it. (Remember that?) Now, not so much. But, it’s pretty normal for the kids to look around at that age and decide where it is most valuable to spend thier over=booked time. Sad, though, for this generation, in a lot of ways.

ilovetoquilt22 · September 10, 2009, 3:23am

Is there anyway he can parlay guitar into band? I know many highschools have jazz bands that need guitar players, or even in the orchestra. I would let him quit sax as long as he stayed with guitar, something that will last him a long time. If you know what highschool he will be attending in a few years, go to one of their concerts, and see what instruments the orchestra has. If your son really likes guitar, he can maybe play in highschool.

I played 3 instruments in my Highschool band. I moved alot, so it was an easy introduction into an activity and a way to make friends.

THat being said, i never pushed an activity they disliked, so long as they were doing something productive.

spideygirl · September 10, 2009, 2:32pm

Music is like dessert - you should never have to push it.

One of my kids took piano from grade one through grade seven. He never wanted to practice, but loved sitting with the teacher and having a lesson. That was good enough for me - I never made him. Crazy? Perhaps. But I didn’t care how much he did or did not progress.

We went through two piano teachers who totally disagreed with me. The second one pretty much held a debate on the topic regularly for five years. That was exhausting! I felt that I was paying her to sit with my son for an hour and teach what she could (I knew it was unusual, but it was what he wanted to do). She felt that it wasn’t good for him not to move ahead at a reasonable pace. To me music is not something that should ever be pushed. In the middle of grade seven he finally quit. A lot of it was the piano teacher’s grumpiness.

Two months later he picked up a sibling’s guitar and started messing around with it. He kept doing that for a couple of hours. The next day, the same thing. It’s been some time now, and he practices for hours and hours every day. Along the way he became an avid composer. He spends whatever free time he has doing that. Somehow he squeezes in a little daily practice on another instrument, and he started singing. His friendship group changed so that he mostly hangs out with other serious musicians. He takes lessons and was in excellent music programs over summers where he was into it as much or more so than the teachers.

We went to see a play in New York recently, and he asked to go to Julliard to look around. His idea (it is still really early for someone his age to look at colleges). He marched into the admissions office, and started asking tons of very detailed questions. He has the brochure displayed prominently on his desk. Julliard doesn’t admit too many guitarists, but his interest in a school like that says a lot about how serious he is about music.

The amount of pure joy my son gets from music blows my mind. He recently shared some feelings with me about how happy he is that he has found his place in the world, and how lucky he is that he found his true life’s passion at such a young age. Not many things could have made me happier.

One more thing - he is freakishly good. Hugely talented (no idea where this came from - no one in either of our families is a musician). We have objective feedback on that (I would have never known). Strange, because he showed no aptitude whatsoever for the piano.

I doubt I had anything to do with this kid becoming a serious musician, but I suspect I could have ruined it by pushing him. That would have been a tragedy.

LasMa · September 12, 2009, 3:10am

My college freshman has danced since she was 3. Here’s our progression of the Quit Conversation.

There were several times in early elementary school that she wanted to quit; but then, there were also times that she wanted to eat candy bars for breakfast. I did not feel that a 6-year-old is a very good judge of what’s in her own best interest. I kept her in dance, and she always came around to liking it again.

Then in about 6th grade, she wanted to quit at one point. By then, I felt she should have a larger share in the decision, and decided to have basically an adult-level conversation about it. I sat her down and said, “I’ll tell you all the reasons I’d like you to keep dancing, and you tell me all the reasons you want to quit.” I went first and reeled off about 12 good reasons, and then said “OK now tell me yours.” She paused and then said, “You know, that makes sense. I’ll stay.” Which surprised me. If it had come to it, my bottom line in that conversation would have been: “You have made performance commitments through the end of year which you must keep. Over the summer, we can decide whether you want to go back next year.”

Mid-way through her junior year, she wanted out again. She was having a stressful year in various ways, most unrelated to dance, but there was also some unpleasant drama at the studio. This time was completely different. I told her that it was her decision, and I would support her either way. I did tell her she needed to talk it out with me or one of her dance teacers, only because I wanted to be sure that she was considering all the factors she needed to consider. She never did mention it again although I knew she was miserable, but she did tough it out and finish the year. She had a wonderful senior year in dance, and told me repeatedly that she was glad she had decided to stay. As a bonus, her dance background is giving her a natural recreational outlet at college, as she has joined one of the dance groups there and is pondering the other group.

Having said that, there is one huge difference between my D and your S; mine did not have anywhere near the sheer number of activities that your son does. Dance was her major EC; 8-10 hours per week. Between that, church, and her rigorous school, she had more than enough to keep her very very busy. I always felt it was better to pick a few things and pursue them with passion and skill, than to have a whole raft of activities and never get beyond mediocrity in any of them.

PackMom · September 12, 2009, 8:42am

When S2 started talking of wanting to quit band, I kept telling him he needed to stick with it, finish out mid. sch, etc. He was also in jazz band at his sch. which practiced before sch. started. He would drag out of the car looking so miserable. I found out later(he admitted it) that he was skipping it, hiding out behind the sch. building waiting for the bell to ring. He had never skipped a class before in his life. I knew then that he was really unhappy and felt bad that I had kept pushing him to the point that he ended up doing something he knew was wrong(skipping class) in order to avoid band.
He was a much happier kid when he ditched that trombone. 
We had also sort of coereced him into joining the youth choir at at church during mid. sch. He hated every minute of that too. Turns out music was just not his thing.

Meanwhile, he had already been playing football for a couple of years at that point and it was obvious that that was where his true talent and greatest joy was found. He went on to be a team capt. and a starter on the defensive line for four years in h.s. Football here is pretty much a yr. round committment. He never missed a practice. What a difference.

jyber209 · September 12, 2009, 11:19am

Hi Sally,

Joining in late to this discussion so perhaps the matter has been resolved. Just in case not, here’s my two cents worth (for free) :

I am inclined to concur with your beginning position that your son should give *either *chorus *or *band a try rather than take a free period (study hall). Few middle school academic schedules are overwhelmingly demanding, and it seems that your son does manage to have free unstructured time for playing with neighborhood kids, etc.

The accelerated math class is a non-issue IMO as presumably that is simply the appropriate placement for him. It does not take extra time from his schedule --well, perhaps he has to spend a bit more time working on his homework, but again, if it is at his level, should be no big deal.

My first kid played two instruments (flute and violin) so was in both band and orchestra. My second quickly bombed out on violin when he tried it for a year (and we tired of the “cow giving birth” serenades) but he took to trumpet. He did not excell at the instrument but enjoyed it, especially in later years when the small ensembles did fun things – like serenading the school wearing Santa hats the day before winter break began, dropping in on classes to play seasonal songs.

Because he did not practice much, we never traded in S’s first student trumpet for a better instrument, whereas we had upgraded his much more dedicated sibling to a silver flute in high school. But IMO there is room for a range of dedication in pursuing an interest.

Anyhow, this casual trumpeter stayed with it, played jazz band in high school in addition to enjoying marching and concert bands, and took that same trumpet (which he got in fourth grade) to college last year. At college, his involvment in the Pep Band has been central to his college experience.

Again, he rarely practices so most of his playing is scheduled rehearsals, concerts, etc. (We still tell him that if he ever develops more dedication to practice, we would upgrade his instrument.) But he participates and is even in his (small) college’s Concert Band. Last chair Louie, perhaps, but happily involved. :)

Both his high school and college band friends have been great kids and the summer band camps are really nice bonding experiences. He and his GF were a band camp romance. I think going to college a couple of weeks early for Pep Band camp was a terrific transition for him, and his core group at college remains his Pep Band buds.

Anyhow, your S seems to have more than ample energy and IMO unless he makes a strong case for dropping the instrument, I would encourage him to keep to the deal, simply because it may give him meaningful pleasure in later years.

By the way, we have had several kids in our local high school who managed to be both in band and on the football team!

IF he decides to switch to chorus, IMO that is a valid option. This in particular for a boy who likes theater, as adding the singing in could be a great pairing with that interest. The musical directors love to snare guys who like to sing and perform.

But if he does not need the study hall, and is managing fine without it, I’d keep him actively occupied. As I told my kids, I believe in getting my tax money worth from the public school system! ;)

3drummersathome · September 12, 2009, 2:05pm

I think you’ve received plenty of input regarding staying with or dropping music. I just wanted to share that we’ve had several music students want to or drop music in middle school due to frustration with their progress on their instrument. We found out about a year too late that some were getting subpar instruments from the local music store rental or purchase and it was very difficult to get a decent sound from these instruments. Some of the flutes were virtually impossible to play.
Our band director met with the local store and gave them a list of instrument manufacturers that he wanted his kids to have only. He gave the same list to parents when kids signed up. No Costco instruments!!
Just in case any families come here and have kids frustrated with their progress, check the instrument and have the band director or music teacher take a look at it.

idad · September 12, 2009, 2:29pm

S2 began band with one instrument and then switched to another in 5th grade. That made all the difference in the world. From almost dropping band he is now considering majoring or minoring in music in college. Also, guitar is an essential instrument in most Middle & HS jazz bands and is perhaps a way to keep involved in HS band.

OdysseyTigger · September 12, 2009, 11:48pm

Sally

You insisted last year - he’s had a full year to learn to like it.

Why does he want to quit? Because he doesn’t like it or because he’s got too much on his plate? If its because he doesn’t like it, let him quit. If its because he’s afraid of being crushed by his schedule, see if there is some other way to lighten his load.

If you can’t get the above answered:

Does he practice every day? or almost every day?

if no, let him quit

Which does he practice more - the guitar or the sax?

if guitar, let him quit

Is he planning to stop after 8th grade anyway?

If yes, let him quit

At the very least, give HIM the option of ending it next year if he stays in the band this year.

heinochus · September 13, 2009, 12:02am

As a high school senior whose parents wouldn’t let him drop out of piano during middle school, I have to say I’m glad I was pushed. Piano is something I do for myself these days. If I’m home alone I’ll often go to the keyboard and play something, for fun and fulfillment. I didn’t like it then, but I’m glad I had to keep at it, because it’s quite worth it now. Music’s a gift!

double_x · September 14, 2009, 3:23pm

My parents pushing me into music at a young age had me hating music until I was 14 and could really appreiciate. However, I really didn’t get anything out of it and wish I wasn’t pushed. I played Trumpet as a little kid, and now I play a completely different instrument (my '94 tele) which I love and I continue to play gigs with my older friends. I wasn’t helped at all by pushing.

ubetteraccept_me · September 14, 2009, 7:17pm

Don’t force your son to do something he doesn’t want to do. Trust me, he won’t thank you later.

BrandNew70x7 · September 15, 2009, 8:42pm

my parents never forced me, they never even cared about my interests. i found things i loved on my own and figured it all out because of my teachers in high school and college.

thanks mom and dad.

def454 · September 15, 2009, 11:02pm

let me tell you now. i am not a parent i am a high school senior with very pushy parents. They pushed me to stick with orchestra, i dont enjoy playing, but im glad i stayed in for college apps, etc.

My dad pushed me to stick with snowboarding when i was ready to quit- i picked it up voluntarily, but i was already an expert skiier- its very furstrating going from expert to beginner, but i digress, again i am glad i stuck with it.

BUT, pushing isnt always good… My dad pushed me into AP calc this year and a week in i already know its a humongous mistake. I do not belong in the class at all, but if i ask if its okay to drop then god knows what will happen in this house. Push your kid, but not past their limits, my dad thinks i can handle this course when i really cant, and it will not work out well.

shortiegirl9 · November 3, 2009, 2:33pm

I know this thread is from a while ago, but I have to chime in.

Like the above poster, I’m a high school student myself, and my parents never really pushed me–but I’m extremely self-motivated and am still involved in a ton of activities. Basically, I think it depends on the kind of kid he is. If you’re looking at CC, I feel like it probably indicates he’s a good kid who is motivated to succeed and has some strong areas of interest, kind of like myself. In this case, I think that he’s old enough and responsible enough to make his own decisions. I know that I had no idea what I wanted to do in middle school, but following my shifting interests really led me to my passion–which wouldn’t have happened if my parents had limited my time by forcing me to stay in activities that I had really grown out of. Interests do change over time, and just because he used to like band and now he wants to quit doesn’t mean he is in any way lazy or setting a “precedent” of dropping things. Band, at least at my school, is really intense, and requires dropping basically all other activities. I wouldn’t have been able to do it, and maybe your son just can’t either.

"You can't make me ... " YES, we can, but SHOULD we?

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