<p>Backhand, as we see all too often, most girls can have babies before 15! My comment was a result of reading the article from the Princetonian that aparent5 posted. I think many of the young women on this board, ambitious as they are, will face the same things as the 21 year old Princeton girl. In their early 20s, these girls will be in grad school or have demanding jobs in preparation for grad school or a career. They will have a lot of hard choices to make. </p>
<p>The story touched me because at least they are thinking about it. My friends and I who graduated from top schools 25 years ago really thought we could have it all. we went to the same greart undergrad and grad schools and got the same great jobs out of school. And then families and reality hit. I’m just so glad for my daughter that girls are now talking about this and hopefully they’ll find some good compromises by considering the issues early. </p>
<p>It is my guess that we are going to see highly educated, ambitious young women getting married later and later. I wondered if others agree.</p>
<p>We married our equals, had children and tried to keep our careers. Reality. Both spouses could not continue in fast track careers and be the kind of parents we wanted to be. Guess who had to compromise? 10 years out, only 30% of the women from my top 5 b school were still in the work force.</p>
<p>Peer pressure for my generation is that you stayed home with kids if you could afford to. Only cold, selfish women would have full fledged careers while raising kids. And did anyone notice how many kids affluent families were having in suburbia in the last couple of decades? 4 and 5 were not unusual, if we were going to stay home we neede to be challenged!</p>
<p>So we went to top schools and grad schools, married our equals and they became highly successful while we became the best fundraisers schools ever saw. Many of my friends will tell you they hope their daughters do it differently and don’t take a back seat to a husband.</p>
<p>Perhaps they will get married later, but that isn’t necessarily bad. Everyone has different goals and desires. Some are more ready and eager to be parents, others are ready later, or not at all.
zagat -I sense your concern is that our kids will be so busy getting their careers off the ground that they will miss out on a family. I don’t think this is likely. People who really want a family seem to mange to pull it off - and if not, it doesn’t seem to be the career as much as a tempermental thing that prevents it. Sometimes it’s better if some people don’t have kids (for the kids, I mean!)
I think young people know what they are ready for, can handle, and what they don’t feel comfortable taking on, for whatever reason. I’m glad we live in a time when women can be single and not pitied. That being said, I would adore it if my D were to marry in a few years and have a family. I think it’s unlikely to happen that soon, but if and when it happens, I know she’ll be able to make it work.</p>
<p>The majority of the moms at my kids HS work at least part-time, with a large percentage of two-career couples.</p>
<p>ASAP, I fear with an ambitious daughter and sons interested in very smart girld that I may not get grandchildren! Though I admit to being one of the mothers who would not like to see my daughter not give it all up for a man.</p>
<p>My oldest is a lesbian- so I doubt she would give it up for a man, but I know what you mean. I may not get grandchildren, although either of my daughters may change their minds someday about becoming parents. But I will not pressure them, because I don’t think anyone should have children if they don’t want to. There also are many ways to bring the joys of children into their or my life, adoption, nieces/nephews, friends children, big brother/big sister organizations, there will always be plenty of children who need another caring adult in their life, we don’t all have to create our own! :)</p>
<p>I don’t think my wife would characterize her decision to take an extended hiatus from her legal career while our children are young as having given it up for a man, any more than I would characterize having put my musical career on ice for a woman, or for my day job. We’ve each given up something important to us for our children (the trade-off was well worth it.) Sure, “everything’s doable” in some sense, but after you become a parent, you simply can’t continue to do everything you were doing for as many hours as you were doing it before your children were born.</p>
<p>I used that term to respond to zagat, I realize that there is give and take in any relationship, but I am also aware that when we marry too young, we may not have realized yet what things we can “give up” and not lose part of ourselves.
In my generation I do know many women who felt that they “gave up” much more than they realized when they had children, mainly because the H felt that the home was the womans domain, and didn’t truely believe in the equal sharing of domestic responsibilities. Too many women wanted to continue to work outside the home, but they didn’t want to work outside the home and then have another fulltime job waiting for them when they go there.
SOme did quit their jobs for the sake of family harmony, some got divorced, some focused on making more money so they could get more household help ( which usually came from their salary. Some just did what their mothers did, and worked 40 hours and came home and did laundry till 1am.</p>
<p>My comment was based on the fact that in almost every relationship I know, when one gave up a career for the sake of family, it was always the woman. Women with equal educations (but od course not equal career prospects). Yes, I’m aware some men do it too, but I don’t know any.</p>
<p>When the requisit percentage of these people get divorced, the women begin to think of their lost careers as what they gave up for a man.</p>
<p>We know two men who have stayed home while their wives worked. This doesn’t appeal to my d. I think a more equitable sharing, rather than a reversal of what we think of as the traditional roles, is more what she has in mind. She is also aware of the advantages of flexible schedules and short commutes.</p>
<p>This thread is such a hot spot for so many. I sense a lot of different emotions here - those with regrets, some happy with their choices, some feeling like women are somehow in competition with men over choices.</p>
<p>To me, women have almost too many choices. I do envy men in this one regard. While we all know a dad or two who stay home with the kids (and many times this is thought of as just a temporary situation), in most of our society men just <em>know</em> that no matter what they decide to do: get married or not, have children or not - they will have a career and work full time. Period. </p>
<p>Young women right out of college, on the other hand, have this dilemma to face: wait to marry to establish a career first; marry now and then hope husband’s job (or yours) won’t require a move that sets the other person’s career back; marry now and wait to have kids; marry now and have kids right away - career put on hold; marry now, have kids, keep career with kids in daycare, etc. etc. </p>
<p>I find it interesting that some have expressed concern that their daughters might choose to “give it all up” for a man - by which I’m sure they meant giving up their career/earnings for their marriage and family. That statement certainly appears to set a value of one choice over the other. To me I would be “giving it all up” to go back to my career, and I’m pretty darn sure my kids would think I was giving <em>them</em> up - my availability for them - if I went back to work full time. My own mother worked full time plus her entire life, and she was lucky to have a career with a little flexibility and availability to her five children. Her job also paid well enough that we had live-in help - the same elderly couple for 20+ years, which definitely freed her up a little at night. But all five of us wished we could have spent more time with her growing up. When she comes to visit now I just drop everything for the entire week and try to get time, time, time in with her, and my sibs are the same - a leftover from our childhoods I’m sure.</p>
<p>At any rate, I guess it’s just wrong to project our preferences and value judgements on this issue on our kids. If my daughter goes through grad school and then marries and decides to stay home, more power to her, and the same thing holds true if she decides to keep her career intact and put the kids in daycare. But I don’t believe you can do both well, and anyone who says they can is just not being completely upfront with themselves. Life is full of trade-offs and women’s choices are just chock full of them. There is always the road not taken - for everyone.</p>
<p>Docmom, I think today’s young women are aware of the possibilities of part-time, freelance, and private practice work, and I also think they are more aware that children are a parental responsibility and not only a maternal one. I agree that trade-offs and choices are necessary for everyone, but I think there are far more choices available to young people today than in the past.</p>
<p>Zagat (can you recommend a good restaurant? ) this is so true for us:</p>
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<p>I think my wife would have done better than me had she stayed in her relatively fast-track career. We are coming up on our 25 yr b-school reunion. I will see how many women are still working… hmmmm probably lots of the men are retired by now!!!</p>
<p>I had an interesting conversation the other day with my kids…(ages 8 and 11)…My son was angry at me about something, and said, " all you know how to do is wash dishes, anyway!!" as I’m at home fulltime with them…I told him that if that’s all that he’s getting out of me being around, maybe its time I went back to work…that a nanny could wash these dishes and cart them around as well as I did…They both burst into tears (which really surprised me) and pleaded with me not to…My son apologised and said that he loves it when I pick him up from school, and we talk…“you help me with my problems, Mom…I can’t tell a nanny this stuff!”…and I just felt like, hell, I must be doing SOMETHING right…Every once in awhile I do bring up working again, and I get the same response…</p>
<p>Some professional jobs offer regular hours and some flexibility and do not preclude spending time with children. Many mothers, including me, feel fortunate to have jobs which fall into this category. In response to dke’s anecdote above, my kids (when in elementary school) never felt that I didn’t have time to listen to them or help them with their problems, just because I picked them up at an after school program at 5 or 5:15 pm instead of seeing them when they got off the school bus at 3:30 pm. Is this such a horrible prospect that a school-age child would burst into tears at the idea? I am curious, do most people really believe that those of us who worked while our kids were little didn’t interact with our kids? My daughter cannot imagine NOT working when she has kids - it is like a given to her that women can do both. But, as I said, I am fortunate with the type of job which has been available to me, and, in some other fields, it may be that the only choice is between a very time consuming and stressful job with long hours and little flexibility or staying home.</p>
<p>I was a nanny before I had kids and I had a great relationship with them. The mom was a single mom at the time ( although she remarried their dad a few years down the road) and while I loved them very much- I did not take the place of their mom in any way.</p>
<p>I think people need to do whatever works best for them. If you really want to be the one who stays home with the kids until you decide when you begin working outside the home, then do that. If you want to work when the baby is 3 months old then do that ( although I admit I haven’t seen many great circumstances for child care with such a young child).
What I have seen over the years is people feeling ambivalent about their choices, trying to putdown others who have made opposite choices. People who stay home acting like parents ( mothers) who work are one step away from child abusers, and parents who work outside the home ( mothers) treating women who stay home as if every brain cell disappeared once they gave birth.</p>
<p>I think if you want to go back to work you should, but I really don’t think children get a choice in that. I think that is too big of a decision for them. Too much power. I consult my kids on a lot of things and I did stay home when I would have rather been out working, but that was because I couldn’t find an appropriate care situation for my youngest that I could afford. She has very high needs, and the only thing appropriate would have been a nanny, and in this area, they charge a lot!</p>
<p>emeralkity - I hope that I did not come across as someone putting down mothers who stay home or imply that they have lost their brain cells. I was just trying to explain that I do not feel that my kids suffered from lack of time with me because I worked when they were young, and that I was fortunate to be able to work in a full time professional job whose demands and flexibility are compatible with raising kids, at least for me.</p>
<p>At the rate things are going, I bet my boys marry early. Why? Because they are such good value. Smart, gorgeous girls see it and set their sights.</p>
<p>We had a relatively young family life and I have enjoyed the physical component of that-- the skiing, rollerblading, hiking in the Andes. Boys with older fathers spent most of their days at our house shooting hoops with DH.</p>
<p>Plus, in a year and a half, DH and I are footloose and fancy free… I love children, but once they turn 12…crikey! They are a lot of work. I cannot imagine facing teen rejection and force of will at age 70. Tires me to even think about it! Good on all of you who are doing that!</p>
<p>On the subject of having and doing it all, I think the secret is to own a business. The self-workplace is the most flexible–and profitable. I didn’t discuss the possiblities of having and doing it all because I didn’t think I would marry or have children–and neither did my mother!</p>
<p>Funny, I had four marriage proposals before I was 24–none of which were based on obvious ‘eye-candy’ factors. No, it was more that I appeared to be headed for a life of adventure and the fellows wanted to tag along.</p>
<p>Oh no I wasn’t implying that the CC parents have blatant prejudices either for or against styles of parenting. I think on the whole, people are remarkably thoughtful and mature in expressing their opinions.
I have run into quite a few parents IRL however who aren’t shy about their opinions, and in judging others for their choices.
Too many cocktail parties that when I gave the response to " and what do * you * do" , “that I stayed home and did volunteer work for the school”, was met with a mystified look how the heck could I be so articulate if my brains fell out, granted I considered the source and tried not to let it bother me, but it did get old after a while.</p>
<p>In certain circles this was more common place. I know many families who have a huge income on one hand, giving usually the woman the freedom to do charity work that may even take up more time than a paying job. One friend even stayed home ( technically) with her kids, but she had a nanny/housekeeper as well, and seemed to spend most time shopping and having her hair done. But I have to stick up for her. I feel that this lifestyle was expected by her husband, as he put a lot of pressure on her to look stunning at all times. </p>
<p>I also know dads who stay home with their kids, even at the point where the kids are in high school. They are better suited to the running around and cooking of dinners than their wives, and have a secure enough ego that a woman making more money than them, isn’t a problem.
I hope that with younger couples, they will able to be flexible and look for companies that are family friendly as well as allowing the one who wants to do most of the child rearing to do so.</p>
) this is so true for us:</p>