Chance my '27 grad for small LACs - not a straightforward story (lower stats, intended art history major) [HS senior, NH, 3.22 GPA, 1180 SAT, <$40k]

There are lots of adults with degrees in Art History or similar who are self supporting. They work as claims adjusters for P&C insurance companies, they work as corporate event managers for hotel chains, they work in marketing for cruise lines, they are facilities managers for sports arenas, they manage partnerships for rental car companies and they develop “planograms” and coach the sales teams as merchandise leads for consumer products companies.

There are hundreds of roles which require a college degree. In something. Preferably from an accredited non-profit institution, where there is evidence of a strong work ethic, ability to be a go-getter, and evidence of good interpersonal skills.

These middle management roles are not paying $100K plus a bonus to a 22 year old. They require a couple of years of grinding away in junior, entry level jobs before they master some skills. But it’s lunacy to pretend that everyone must become an engineer or a nurse in order to pay their mortgage and put food on the table. Do you know what the qualifications are to work in employee relations at a large industrial company? College degree. Evidence of team work-- able to be both a leader and a follower. There will likely be a test- not a SAT test, but a personality type test to weed out the sociopaths.

That’s it. There are millions of college grads who support themselves in a variety of corporate careers and are pretty happy with their professional choices. I’ll bet you know a couple of dozen of them.

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huh? Except my friends with CS degrees, nobody I know works in the field of their major 30 years out. (Oh, and a couple of profs) and they are all sustaining themselves:)

One of my best college friends majored in anthropology - they of many of their peers work UX at tech companies - they are doing just fine.

Does this make your path harder? It sure can, but “usually” is harsh. College major is not synonymous with “on-the-job” training. I was a double major and never worked in anything close to either of their titles either and made “good money.”

NEVERMIND many many many kids switch majors.

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I will just add, I think having a frank discussion with kid about majors and jobs and paths is good and appropriate, but I think implication ANY major guarantees anything is bogus…and “forcing” a 17 year old into a path they hate seems like no recipe for success.

I will add, seeing other thread about ed careers, I am not sure back-up teacher certification is any sort of guarantee either, certainly not in new England given its demographics. (My district is losing a classroom per grade with no anticipation of gaining back anytime soon - they were added about 10 years ago).

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Agree with this - we are prioritizing places within driving distance for sure. I really want to be able to get to her, or vice versa, if needed.

She is the child of two humanities majors - so we fully support a liberal arts BA! Maybe she will teach some day…she has zero interest in it now, though, so I don’t think forcing it would be a recipe for success.

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I agree with all of this. There are many paths from a liberal arts BA and I would not encourage her to choose ANY career now to bank on, given the world’s uncertainty.

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If want to be drivable and depending where you are in NH, then check out UM Farmington, ECSU, MCLA. All are assured to hit price.

Your risk of looking at PA schools in the sticks is access. Even the VA schools - although if you are by Manchester you could always hop a flight.

If you look further and she falls in love with one, then you have an access issue. It’s real. We had to fly ours home first term - but she was by an airport.

But make access a consideration in where you even visit.

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We’d looked at UMF but not the others (MCLA and ECSU), so they’re now on the list! I also added Eastern CT State and UMass Dartmouth.

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ECSU is Eastern Ct State - sorry for the acronym :slight_smile:

I don’t disagree with @parentologist on majors - but I had two “unpayable” majors and somehow found my way and my daughter had one too.

Truth is, I wish I could have studied accounting or engineering, etc. but in the end, the kids are who they are and they can’t be who they aren’t…plus they might flunk out right away. Put me in a science or engineering major or a business major as an undergrad? I wouldn’t have seen year two.

Wheaton’s curriculum looks like it won’t be heavy STEM in general education or really any STEM. I don’t know if that’s good in general but it’s likely good for yours (and many students) which is likely why they designed the core that way.

But I get it - one step at a time - so baby steps. Get into college. Start college. And hopefully love college, whether in art history or she discovers another passion.

Life is long - and she’ll have plenty of time to find her way, no matter what her path ultimately looks like.

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Oh oops I meant Western CT!

Thanks for the kind words - we want her to be happy and fulfilled and reasonably challenged. She’s the best kid in the world and I’ll do whatever I can to help her find that good fit!

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Doesn’t look like WCSU has an art history major; so if that’s important, you might remove that one.

Did you visit UM Farmington or just looked on line? Just always curious what people think - it’s small, the town is small but not completely isolated - but it’s got a great cost :slight_smile:

Can you please explain your reasoning for not doing ED? Sure, if you’re trying to use ED to try to gain a huge increase in odds, that might be foolhardy but if you think you’re pretty close but feeling like you’re a little on the low end, why not use ED to increase your odds? Of course you’d have to really love that school and accept that their fin aid offer may not be quite as generous as RD.

A few people seem to be positive that financial aid offers are never as good in ED as they are in RD. Do you have any actual evidence for that? It is not the experience our family had (where the offer was actually slightly better than the NPC) or that of our friends. In several cases, including at tippy top colleges, we knew families that negotiated ED offers pretty heavily but no one felt that they would have gotten more had they waited. I think unless you’re willing to wait until the last moment and hope a college throws a few thousand dollars of merit aid at you at the eleventh hour there’s very little difference in offers at most colleges based on when you apply. If anything I could make an argument that you’re likely to get more early on when 1) they have money and 2) they’re hoping to lock in students early on so they can make sensible plans to fill out the class. There’s no advantage to the college to fill half the class in March versus December and a lot of disadvantages. The few thousand dollars they might save on a student by shortchanging those who apply ED while risking that seat goes unfilled is just not worth it.

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I’ll be back later, but I wanted to share some data. College Navigator is down (or rather, it’s having heavy demand and has asked me to return later). So I used this website to gather the number of majors in various majors of interest to your D:

https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/jonboeckenstedt/viz/BachelorsDegreesAwardedin2022/Dashboard1

The nice thing about that website is that it offers the number of first AND second majors, so double majors count in the totals (as compared to College Navigator that just shares the 2nd major). But this info is from 2022, so not up-to-date, but hopefully the general trend is sufficient to get a good idea. I included history, general as a major, and then a variety of art-related majors in case different schools classified their majors differently (i.e. art/art studies, general vs. fine/studio arts, general, or specific art fields. So In the third column has the total number of general history majors and the second to the right column has the total number of art-related majors. The column furthest to the right has the highest number of majors in your D’s combined areas of interest.

Here is a snip which may be easier to visualize on the forum, but I will also add in the complete table further below for full info and accessibility.

Some of the schools in the table may be more of commuter schools. But if they had a good number of majors in the areas of interest for your D, I kept them.

I would highly encourage taking a look at Eastern Connecticut State, and @Bill_Marsh has had some very positive comments about it. If Pennsylvania is not too far south, @Mashinations visited some of the schools listed here and shared thoughts on those visits, too.

If you could let us know where the outer boundary is that your family would prefer for geography, then some of the places in NY or PA might be eliminated.

School State History, General Art History Art/Art Studies (General) Fine/Studio Arts, General Painting Drawing Sculpture Total Art Related Majors Total History & Art-Related Majors
Bridgewater State MA 71 1 55 56 127
SUNY Brockport NY 37 17 44 61 98
SUNY Purchase NY 39 13 34 8 55 94
College of New Jersey NJ 60 2 24 26 86
Alfred NY 5 69 69 74
SUNY New Paltz NY 47 13 9 2 24 71
SUNY Oswego NY 22 33 15 48 70
Eastern Connecticut State CT 25 33 33 58
SUNY Buffalo State NY 31 3 20 2 1 26 57
Millersville PA 28 28 28 56
Gettysburg PA 42 10 2 12 54
SUNY Potsdam NY 35 1 17 18 53
SUNY Plattsburgh NY 31 9 10 19 50
Shippensburg PA 40 9 9 49
Southern Connecticut State CT 22 1 25 26 48
Kutztown PA 21 10 16 26 47
Western Connecticut State CT 19 27 27 46
Hobart William Smith NY 30 6 7 13 43
Westfield State MA 28 14 14 42
Wheaton MA 17 2 21 23 40
Connecticut College CT 16 4 18 22 38
St. Lawrence NY 19 18 18 37
Slippery Rock (prob. too far west) PA 23 14 14 37
SUNY Cortland NY 31 5 1 6 37
Moravian PA 16 20 20 36
Central Connecticut State CT 32 4 4 36
Clark MA 17 7 10 17 34
Marist NY 18 14 14 32
Saint Anselm NH 24 8 8 32
SUNY Geneseo NY 28 4 4 32
SUNY Oneonta NY 22 9 9 31
Nazareth NY 15 3 12 15 30
Monmouth NJ 26 4 4 30
Salve Regina RI 12 2 13 15 27
Ithaca NY 16 3 4 4 11 27
Keene State NH 18 9 9 27
Lycoming PA 10 1 15 16 26
Saint Michael’s VT 16 10 10 26
U. of Massachusetts - Dartmouth MA 22 2 2 4 26
Plymouth State NH 8 6 10 16 24
Muhlenberg PA 13 3 7 10 23
SUNY Fredonia NY 17 2 4 6 23
Arcadia (in a Philly suburb) PA 11 2 7 1 10 21
Siena NY 16 4 4 20
Seton Hall NJ 18 2 2 20
Stonehill MA 16 3 3 19
Suffolk MA 9 4 5 9 18
Hartwick NY 9 3 6 9 18
Drew NJ 8 2 7 9 17
U. of Hartford CT 4 3 10 13 17
Rhode Island College RI 10 2 1 4 7 17
Emmanuel MA 13 4 4 17
Castleton VT 8 8 8 16
Roger Williams RI 7 7 7 14
Susquehanna PA 11 3 3 14
Manhattanville NY 5 4 4 8 13
Cedar Crest PA 1 11 11 12
U. of Main at Farmington ME 3 9 9 12
Saint Joseph’s (in Philly) PA 11 1 1 12
Simmons MA 6 5 5 11
Manhattan NY 9 2 2 11
Marywood PA 1 3 4 1 8 9
Seton Hill (prob. too far west) PA 4 2 3 5 9
Endicott MA 4 4 4 8
Merrimack MA 6 2 2 8
Springfield MA 4 2 2 6
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Just wanted to chime in re: Mary Washington, since I saw it mentioned above. I have a work colleague who sent two children there and both loved it. Very different girls, one super sporty, became an Ed major, one not at all sporty, majored in something that led to a first job in fashion in Amsterdam somehow. It’s a lovely setting and kids there seem happy.

But I probably wouldn’t recommend it to you if you want easy-ish access to your child. It’s about an hour, maybe 90 minutes drive from Dulles Airport (more flights to New England) maybe shorter from DCA. Probably about the same coming up from Richmond airport. And you’d have to fly and rent a car. You can drive it from NH, but I’ll tell you it takes me 8.5 hours to drive to Boston, and I live 45 minutes north of Mary Wash, so depending on how far south in NH, that could be a really rough drive for you.

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I don’t think anyone is positive and it’s an unknown, and likely school dependent, but the reality is you are giving up leverage. Schools themselves will offer a “minimum” for applying ED because they know people won’t pay sticker. St. Olaf is an example. But would the student have gotten more by going RD? In many cases by what people post - yes.

Most “college experts” guide that if merit aid is important to you that you’re giving up leverage by going ED. And logically it makes sense. It’s like in my business (automotive) - we have an incentive budget and we spend on things that don’t sell. Why would we spend on something that sells? ED is already sold.

The other thing is - say school A is $40K and you ED’d. Another unexpectedly comes in at $25K. Would that $25K make you reconsider that favorite that came in at $40k? When you have a budget, it might - and this family has a budget (I’m not saying this would happen here but just answering your question) - i.e. say Wheaton is $40K and Susquehanna or something closer defies the expectation and comes in $25K. Would that change the original thought in school choice? Maybe here it won’t but for some it will.

In the end, you’re giving up leverage. And as a business, why would you spend your incentive budget where you don’t need to? Some schools are wealthier than others and so they have more to throw around. And some go the other way, ensuring a minimum incentive, to drum up EV apps since they know they have little chance of getting full pays to begin with.

Everyone’s strategy is different - and there’s probably truth to all sides - but how do you know where and when?

The other thing we’ve seen increase these past few years is - and you brought it up - once admitted, if you don’t enroll, later increased merit offers suddenly appear (not widespread but it seems to be happening more and more).

Truth is, you don’t know if you maxed out merit aid on your ED. You only know the price beat the NPC. You might have done better without ED. At the same time, I don’t know that the student will get less merit at Wheaton in RD. But it is my belief, that on average, they will - across all schools - because it’s just the logical thing.

Marketing budgets are limited, especially at 3rd tier schools, so if they’re spending equally on ED, then the admit team should probably be replaced, especially when their attendance falls up short.

Of course, third level colleges probably have few unhooked ED applicants to begin with.

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Could you point out some of these cases? How would someone know they got more with RD than ED, given that you can only do one, i.e., you can’t do a side-by-side comparison?

Curious. Thanks.

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It’s hard to know definitively but I’m persuaded that this is the case, at least as an overall general pattern. I’m sure there are exceptions and/or variability. While private colleges can be run like businesses, most are non-profit, and it seems colleges try to keep fin aid & admission decisions partitioned from each other. They seem to try to be ethical & transparent, which helps elevate their prestige.

It would be interesting if someone did a rigorous study using stats and interviews w/ insiders.

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Because when a student needs substantial aid that they should not be expecting, based upon their record and their family’s finances, they should not commit to an ED application, when they know that aid is going to be a huge factor in where they can go.

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Of course, if she has no interest in teaching, then she should not get the Ed certification. What does she see herself doing after college?

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@nhteachermom I just sent you a private message. Look in the upper right corner for a little green thing.