I agree with this… when a family is not making a huge financial sacrifice, or borrowing, for that “find themselves” college experience for their child. If you look at who is drowning in student debt, or barely making it, still being supported by their parents after college, or living back home in their childhood bedroom, working several low paying part time jobs, as they try to figure out what their next move is, it’s usually the students who did not have a clear career path in mind, who majored in what they loved, and didn’t worry about how they would support themselves afterwards. And that’s fine, if there is substantial financial backing. It’s not fine if they will need to support themselves after graduation.
I’ve read enough school posts that you see the awards are higher.
For need aid, it won’t matter.
If someone wants to ED, it’s a decision they can make. Many like ED. I don’t but I’m a merit family.
For anyone who chooses ED, it’s fine if they are happy.
1 Like
Thank you so much!! I really appreciate this!
1 Like
NPR had a fascinating interview just this week. The “drowning in debt” folks are NOT the ones who majored in Art History, Latin American Studies, etc., much to the chagrin of the politically motivated groups (and media outlets)who claim otherwise. And it’s not the kids at liberal arts colleges majoring in something they love without a clear plan, as you put it. The “drowning in debt” folks have maxxed out their Pell AND maxxed out their ability to borrow for vocational degrees from for-profit colleges. And in many instances, getting degrees for careers which do NOT require a degree in that area. The statistics they provided were pretty compelling. There is an entire, predatory industry of “higher education outlets” who target low income, first gen kids with offers of “get a free degree and begin working immediately in a high paying career once you graduate”.
The saddest story for me was a woman who was one course short of a degree in computer science. She told the interviewer “I should have been suspicious because the classes were so easy” but she just thought “hey, computer science isn’t as hard as everyone claims”. The final requirement to graduate was an externship at a tech company which the college claimed they would find for her. Except nobody wanted a marginal CS soon-to-be graduate from a for-profit college with no track record. And nobody wanted a marginal CS graduate who was learning 2003-level skills in 2025. So no externship, no degree.
Every time an Attorney General closes one of these scam outfits down in their state, another one pops up. Different name. Same “investors” claiming that they are “disrupting” higher ed. The numbers are staggering- both the number of students who are being duped, AND the total amount of their loans.
These kids are drowning in debt because getting a bachelor’s in “court reporting” or “travel and tourism” or “recreational management” or “sports management” or “applied forensics” does NOT qualify you to become a lawyer, become head of marketing for an airline, run a theme park, negotiate contracts for the NFL, or become a medical examiner, respectively. And these predatory companies know this. They also know that parents want their kids training in something that will allow them to get a great job on Day 1 after graduating. Why major in history (useless major, why learn about the Civil War when you can make a Tiktok?) when a college is offering you the ability to leapfrog over those dummies who are studying those worthless things?
12 Likes
Eastern Connecticut State University (enrollment: 3300) is the liberal arts college of the Connecticut State University system. About 10 years ago they opened a dedicated Find Arts Instructional Center for both visual and performing arts, including studios for design, drawing painting, ceramics, sculpture, and printmaking. The building also houses “The Art Gallery”. Cost of attendance for out of state students is estimated at +$34,000. Located in the historic Prospect Hill neighborhood of Willimantic, which has 800 Victorian homes, the largest number of privately owned Victorians of any city in the country aside fro San Francisco.
5 Likes
Of the schools I mentioned earlier, these are some that I would prioritize investigating as they seem to have relatively popular history and arts majors along with a high percentage of first year students living on-campus, leading me to believe they are residential campuses (rather than commuter or suitcase schools):
-
SUNY Brockport: About 5800 undergrads with 89% of first year students living in college housing. (If it’s not too far away; it’s 1h7m from Hobart and William Smith which is on your current list.)
-
SUNY Potsdam: About 1800 undergrads with 82% of first year students living in college housing. It’s part of a consortium with St. Lawrence and Clarkson that allows students to cross-register for classes at the other colleges.
-
SUNY Plattsburgh: About 3900 undergrads, 89% of first years living on campus, and quite possibly the closest SUNY to NH, depending on where in the state you live.
-
Eastern Connecticut State: About 3800 undergrads with 88% of first years living on-campus.
-
SUNY Oswego: About 5500 undergrads with 89% of first years living in college housing.
-
St. Lawrence (NY): More of a true liberal arts-sized colleges with about 1900 undergrads and 100% of first year students living on-campus. This would be a reachier school for your D.
-
Clark (MA): I know she had visited and was interested until she heard about some of the cuts, but I’d have her investigate what all the cuts entail and how it impacts her areas of interest.
-
Connecticut College: This would be a reach, but I think it’s worth mentioning if she gets a 29 ACT score like her practice tests are indicating are possible. About 1900 undergrads with 100% of first hyears living on-campus.
-
Ithaca (NY): About 4200 undergrads at this school and 99% of first years live on-campus.
-
Kutztown (PA ): About 6200 undergrads with 91% of first year students living on-campus.
I got the enrollment and the % of first-years on campus from the College Board’s Big Future website, but it’s best to verify the data from the college’s own website and/or Common Data Set. I think all the SUNY campuses I mentioned participate in the Tuition Match program, meaning that your family would pay the same tuition price as at UNH-Durham:
Thus, I’m 99% sure that all the SUNYs and Kutztown will come in within budget. For the privates, run the NPCs.
These maps give you a sense of the different colleges’ locations. I used Keene State as the NH reference.
And just to round out the data dump, below is the chart above updated with the enrollments and percentages of first-years living on-campus in case you or anyone else was interested in the information for the other schools mentioned previously.
| School | State | Enrollment | % First-Years in College Housing | History, General | Total Art Related Majors | Total History & Art-Related Majors |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Bridgewater State | MA | 7,828 | 69% | 71 | 56 | 127 |
| SUNY Brockport | NY | 5,778 | 89% | 37 | 61 | 98 |
| SUNY Purchase | NY | 3,202 | 86% | 39 | 55 | 94 |
| College of New Jersey | NJ | 7,435 | 87% | 60 | 26 | 86 |
| Alfred | NY | 1,420 | 95% | 5 | 69 | 74 |
| SUNY New Paltz | NY | 6,087 | 88% | 47 | 24 | 71 |
| SUNY Oswego | NY | 5,473 | 89% | 22 | 48 | 70 |
| Eastern Connecticut State | CT | 3,839 | 88% | 25 | 33 | 58 |
| SUNY Buffalo State | NY | 5,097 | 67.70% | 31 | 26 | 57 |
| Millersville | PA | 5,823 | 75% | 28 | 28 | 56 |
| Gettysburg | PA | 2,099 | 99% | 42 | 12 | 54 |
| SUNY Potsdam | NY | 1,823 | 82% | 35 | 18 | 53 |
| SUNY Plattsburgh | NY | 3,925 | 89% | 31 | 19 | 50 |
| Shippensburg | PA | 5,120 | 86% | 40 | 9 | 49 |
| Southern Connecticut State | CT | 6,781 | Not Available | 22 | 26 | 48 |
| Kutztown | PA | 6,180 | 91% | 21 | 26 | 47 |
| Western Connecticut State | CT | 3,542 | Not Available | 19 | 27 | 46 |
| Hobart and William Smith | NY | 1,786 | 100% | 30 | 13 | 43 |
| Westfield State | MA | 3,615 | 75% | 28 | 14 | 42 |
| Wheaton | MA | 1,764 | 95% | 17 | 23 | 40 |
| Connecticut College | CT | 1,937 | 100% | 16 | 22 | 38 |
| St. Lawrence | NY | 1,918 | 100% | 19 | 18 | 37 |
| Slippery Rock (prob. too far west) | PA | 6,801 | 91.10% | 23 | 14 | 37 |
| SUNY Cortland | NY | 5,901 | 84% | 31 | 6 | 37 |
| Moravian | PA | 1,949 | 72% | 16 | 20 | 36 |
| Central Connecticut State | CT | 7,822 | 59.20% | 32 | 4 | 36 |
| Clark | MA | 2,213 | 95% | 17 | 17 | 34 |
| Marist | NY | 5,545 | Not Available | 18 | 14 | 32 |
| Saint Anselm | NH | 2,052 | Not Available | 24 | 8 | 32 |
| SUNY Geneseo | NY | 3,869 | 95.40% | 28 | 4 | 32 |
| SUNY Oneonta | NY | 4,643 | 95.30% | 22 | 9 | 31 |
| Nazareth | NY | 1,873 | 85.60% | 15 | 15 | 30 |
| Monmouth | NJ | 3,837 | 79.50% | 26 | 4 | 30 |
| Salve Regina | RI | 2,121 | 95% | 12 | 15 | 27 |
| Ithaca | NY | 4,242 | 99% | 16 | 11 | 27 |
| Keene State | NH | 2,718 | 92% | 18 | 9 | 27 |
| Lycoming | PA | 1,004 | 87% | 10 | 16 | 26 |
| Saint Michael’s | VT | 1,178 | Not Available | 16 | 10 | 26 |
| U. of Massachusetts - Dartmouth | MA | 5,221 | 67% | 22 | 4 | 26 |
| Plymouth State | NH | 3,153 | 93% | 8 | 16 | 24 |
| Muhlenberg | PA | 1,777 | 96% | 13 | 10 | 23 |
| SUNY Fredonia | NY | 2,863 | 89% | 17 | 6 | 23 |
| Arcadia (in a Philly suburb) | PA | 1,948 | 80% | 11 | 10 | 21 |
| Siena | NY | 3,409 | 77.60% | 16 | 4 | 20 |
| Seton Hall | NJ | 6,036 | 65% | 18 | 2 | 20 |
| Stonehill | MA | 2,539 | 92% | 16 | 3 | 19 |
| Hartwick | NY | 1,087 | 98% | 9 | 9 | 18 |
| Suffolk | MA | 4,238 | 72.87% | 9 | 9 | 18 |
| U. of Hartford | CT | 4,146 | 80% | 4 | 13 | 17 |
| Drew | NJ | 1,533 | 78% | 8 | 9 | 17 |
| Rhode Island College | RI | 4,785 | Not Available | 10 | 7 | 17 |
| Emmanuel | MA | 1,854 | 82% | 13 | 4 | 17 |
| Castleton | VT | Not Available | Not Available | 8 | 8 | 16 |
| Roger Williams | RI | 3,601 | 91% | 7 | 7 | 14 |
| Susquehanna | PA | 2,081 | 95.60% | 11 | 3 | 14 |
| Manhattanville | NY | 1,362 | 53% | 5 | 8 | 13 |
| Cedar Crest | PA | 886 | Not Available | 1 | 11 | 12 |
| U. of Maine at Farmington | ME | 1,140 | 91% | 3 | 9 | 12 |
| Saint Joseph’s (in Philly) | PA | 4,948 | 91% | 11 | 1 | 12 |
| Simmons | MA | 1,670 | 78% | 6 | 5 | 11 |
| Manhattan | NY | 2,739 | 49% | 9 | 2 | 11 |
| Marywood | PA | 1,785 | 69% | 1 | 8 | 9 |
| Seton Hill (prob. too far west) | PA | 1,484 | 74% | 4 | 5 | 9 |
| Endicott | MA | 3,291 | 95% | 4 | 4 | 8 |
| Merrimack | MA | 3,794 | 76% | 6 | 2 | 8 |
| Springfield | MA | 1,752 | 100% | 4 | 2 | 6 |
2 Likes
Happy to help out with any information around some of the schools we visited - just went through this with D26 in search for Elemetary Ed. schools (we’re in MA).
UNH & Keene will get you there economically and I would think likely admit at both. Very different schools though (size and location among other things).
Stonehill might get you close economically but will depend on what they award for merit. They tend to be pretty generous but list price is high and ultimately think you’re likely to have better options at less cost.
Towards some of the other suggested schools… would strongly suggest looking at some of the SUNY schools. We looked at Cortland and Oneonta and if D26 didn’t end up at UMaine likely would have landed at Oneonta.
Kutztown was a great visit as well. Fairly rural but the size of the school makes up for it and even OOS it will pretty easily be within budget.
We visited Eastern Connecticut as well and I would say the impression was mixed. Nice school, happy kids, but buildings fairly compressed together and a lack of green space and the area around it was a little depressed (parents opinion). Still a good option to apply to and see what the economic proposition is.
Feel free to send a DM if you had any specific questions about our experiences visiting any of them.
5 Likes
Connecticut College has the lovely Lyman-Allyn Museum immediately next door. Its exhibits include both history and fine arts. The college offers some courses cooperatively with the museum.
Another College which offers programs in cooperation with local museums is the Massachusetts College of Liberal Arts (enrollment: 700) in the Berkshires (North Adams). It is a very small college, but there is a Tri-Institution consortium with nearby Williams and Bennington Colleges. A car is helpful, but free public transportation makes Williams easily accessible with a 20 minute bus ride.
Because of its small size, MCLA isn’t for everyone but it offers a unique opportunity for a student interested in art and history because of its partnerships with nearby museums. Just a mile from campus is Mass MOCA, the largest museum of contemporary art in the world and it has a formal College Partnership Program with MCLA. Right on campus is MCLA Gallery 51 & MOSAIC, a joint project by Mass MOCA, MCLA, & the city of North Adams and run by the Berkshire Cultural Resource Center as a working downtown museum. The Clark Art Institute in neighboring Williamstown provides MCLA students free access to educational programming and research opportunities. Finally, MCLA History and Art majors frequently do internships for course credit at other museums in the region, i.t, the Norman Rockwell Museum, Hancock Shaker Village, and The Mount working alongside curators and arts management administrators.
As I said above, not for everyone because of its size, but for History, Art, and Art History majors it offers many more opportunities than much bigger schools, including course options at Williams College. As an added bonus all out-of-state New England students receive an 85% discount, making the cost of attendance only $32,000.
5 Likes
Just to offer a different perspective on Eastern Connecticut State where I have 2 grandkids. With a campus of 180 acres, I don’t think I’d describe it as “compressed”. One of the benefits of a campus which is not spread out with large extra green spaces is that it is walkable and much easier to manage distances getting to & from classes and other activities. By contrast, students can’t get around campus at nearby UConn without taking a campus bus. There are also lots of opportunities for outdoor activities nearby. One of my grandsons had commented on how much he and his friends have enjoyed hiking in nearby woods. He also runs on the Air Line Trail, a 60 mile rail trail, and the 30 mile Hop River Trail both of which run through town, offering opportunities for running, jogging, walking, and off road biking. The state has recently completed a waterfront access park downtown on the Willimantic River for kayaking and canoeing. Lots to do for outdoorsy students.
3 Likes
You don’t really know, and it may vary from one college to another.
However, merit scholarships exist to attract high end students to the college when those high end students are comparing that college’s offer to those of other colleges. Where the merit scholarships are not automatically given for stats or applying ED, does the college really have any incentive to offer them to ED admits who will attend no matter what?
1 Like
Just another perspective from another thread - from @ucbalumnus
You don’t really know, and it may vary from one college to another.
However, merit scholarships exist to attract high end students to the college when those high end students are comparing that college’s offer to those of other colleges. Where the merit scholarships are not automatically given for stats or applying ED, does the college really have any incentive to offer them to ED admits who will attend no matter what?
You may want to run the Net Price Calculator on Siena College as well. Lovely school.
This is all still speculation with no empirical proof which even if it makes sense to you doesn’t make it true. I think it’s equally likely that colleges want kids to apply ED and therefore a reputation for giving good aid/merit in ED helps in this goal. The point is we don’t know for sure either way and unless you’re willing to play a very long game into late March it’s really unlikely to make much of a difference. In any case this is way off topic now so this is my last reply.
1 Like
Exactly. Relative merit in ED/EA/RD will vary by school.
I encourage OP’s D to contact their admissions officer and ask this question, or ask in an admissions session. Many schools will answer.
For example, American U will say they don’t give lower merit awards to ED accepted students, Tulane says the pool of merit money is lower and merit awards less common in ED. I don’t know the current practices at any of OP’s D’s list, but again, contact them and ask (after checking the websites.)
2 Likes
Yes, this was noted - as were the “generalities” behind the logic of giving away marketing money when you don’t need to.
St. Olaf, as an example, assures $30K but their merit goes from $17K to $34K. So some are likely getting paid more to ED - which is another marketing strategy to use merit aid to ensure students attend as Juno brought up.
And it would make sense that schools would give at least “some” in ED so as not to scare away future students from applying ED.
Nobody has made any definitive statements but rather statements of logical reasoning. It’s always been noted it’s school by school.
If one isn’t concerned with maximizing a merit offer or comparing offers from other schools, then ED is a fine choice if the student is comfortable being bound. No one has said otherwise. But for those who want maximium flexibility - and there are ED parents who want their cake and to eat it to because I’ve chatted with them…they want the ED bump yet still to see other offers), then ED is not the way…but it’s becoming the way because schools like Reed, Whitman, and more will give you their offer before you even apply!!!
Like a good marketer, they change the game with the times. They have too as they will be competing for a smaller bucket of customers…I mean students.
It’s so interesting, I feel like Connecticut College comes up again and again but it seems like its admissions rates are much lower than anything else on my daughter’s list, except maybe Bard. I’m so curious why this is!
MCLA is now on the EA list 
1 Like
Will do, thank you!
Thanks for this!
1 Like
Stonehill’s NPC was on the higher side for us at $43,000. It’s one that I think she needs to see in person.
1 Like
This is one her college counselor suggested and I really like it, but it may be too far away…
So it’s interesting because we’d heard that studio art was moving to a minor (confirmed by this article), but it’s still listed as a major on their website. I think it’s worth checking in with them about it – she liked the campus/school otherwise.