<p>Bravo to the Grantham ladies for refusing to leave Isobel’s luncheon.</p>
<p>I do hope Bates gets out of jail next week so we won’t have to endure anymore of the tiresome prison story. </p>
<p>How long before Thomas’s overtures toward new guy go too far? Had to laugh last night when O’Brien assured him that all was well. She’s so cagey.</p>
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<p>My impression is Tom as COO to Matthew’s CEO with the Earl kicked upstairs to Chairman of the Board. Tom is bright and ambitious–he did marry an aristocrat. Maybe he becomes a tycoon and buys Downton for himself, his daughter, and his new bride (Ethel?!).</p>
<p>When the SB was 28-6, I thought I’d be going PBS, but the game turned. Then stayed up with my DVR.</p>
<p>Cardinal - “hooker cooties!” Yes, brava for the ladies! I also bought season 3 and so can’t comment much, but H and I had a child-free weekend and what did we do? Watched season 3 of course! We tried to pace ourselves, but we just couldn’t - haha! Rewatched last night’s episode in real time. I miss things the first time around - not sure if it’s the accents or what, but I could watch over and over. I think Mary is really growing up, and I like her more and more.</p>
<p>Fab epi! </p>
<p>I could see Branson becoming COO and him and Edith hooking up - can’t have all the cast members flying the coop.</p>
<p>One minute, I wanted to tell Robert to get over himself and STHU, the next I wanted to tell everyone else to stop dogpiling him. I have to admit, though, as a Catholic of Irish decent raised in a largely Protest area, some of his anti-Catholic barbs struck home.</p>
<p>I find the whole Catholic/Protestant debate fairly ridiculous, since it doesn’t seem that anyone of them has any deep religious convictions. We never see them coming from church on Sunday, in fact the only time they’ve bee in church is to get married (or almost married as the case may be) or to study the architecture (Matthew and Edith). There is no real mention of God, except a passing “Thank God” here and there, and the only one we’ve seen in prayer is Mary praying for Matthew’s safety in the war. And even then, Edith mocked her for it. I am not Catholic, but I found Rev. Travis was appalling at the dinner table, with his sneering comments on the Catholic mass, and he is supposed to be a man of faith! It’s likely that of all them, Branson is the only one who has any real beliefs. Just my opinion…</p>
<p>I was suprised that Matthew actually used the word “mismanagement” in front of Lord Grantham. It seems like the better approach would be that they should introduce “modern innovations” or the like, so to tie any upcoming changes to the changing times rather than Lord G’s mismangement.</p>
<p>I shouldn’t be commenting much, since I switched back to the Superbowl after Baltimore’s bad punt. But the Protestant-Catholic divide had fairly little to do with religion, especially on the Protestant side. It was cultural (“There’s always something of Johnny Foreigner about Papists,” as Lord Grantham said a few episodes back). And the stuff about whose “tribe” was whose this week.</p>
<p>@Operadivasmom - it’s more about social standing than beliefs, IMHO. By and large, the Crawleys couldn’t care less about religion other than the social obligation of setting an example. But they care (or at least Robert does) very much about one of their “tribe” being preceived as belonging to what they see as a lower social order. I don’t think he’d care so much if it were only a question of a different branch of Protestantism - say Presbyterian vs. Anglican. But Catholics were (and still are in some circles - trust me) seen as being social inferiors with an alliegance to Rome and the Pope that overrode everything else in their life and made them incapable of any intelligent, independent thought.
ETA - Sorry JHS - I didn’t see your post before I posted this.</p>
<p>Carson’s face was hilarious when Branson said that the baby was to be baptized Catholic. I was half expecting Carson to hit him with the silver breakfast platter!</p>
<p>And good for the women for refusing to leave Isobel’s luncheon. I found it interesting that the only people who seemed dead set against Ethel were men (with the exception of Mrs. Byrd of course).</p>
<p>Adding to the religion discussion: It’s important to remember that there is an official religion in England—Church of England. More so in Downton times than today, this is an integral part of the upper class identity in England (what makes you a “real” Englishman). I think as Americans with our separation of church & state, we don’t comprehend how a State religion makes for insiders & outsiders in many countries. (Look at how this has played out in Ireland, for example.)</p>
<p>I was glad that the dowager countess mentioned her dear friend, the dowager countess of Norfolk who is “more Catholic than the Pope”. Even through the reformation there were always a few aristocrats who clung to the RC faith and managed to survive not being able to marry the heir to the throne. </p>
<p>What was odd to me was the Protestant reverend dissing the incense and other trappings of Catholicism when “high church” Anglican services are nearly indistinguishable from the Roman mass.</p>
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<p>I see that - Robert’s continued arrogance. So sad. Kind of like political party affiliation rather than actual belief. “There hasn’t been a Catholic Crawley since the Reformation!”
Just like there was probably never a Democratic Vanderbilt or Rockefeller!</p>
<p>It’s also important to remember the violent roots of the Catholic/Protestant divide in Britain. Depending on who was in charge, the official religion was imposed by force. This mirrored what happened on the continent: the wars within France, the 30 years war in the 17thC, etc. The history is far too complicated even to list, but much of British history was made by the suppression of Catholicism, the dissolution (and destruction) of the vast monasteries and orders, and the separation of the CofE from Rome. One interesting subject to learn about is whether Shakespeare’s family - and Anne Hathaway’s - were hidden Catholics. I think the evidence is pretty good they either were or that they belonged to a Protestant sect outside the CofE because those were suppressed as well. That suppression leads into American history with the Puritans, Pilgrims, etc. </p>
<p>I think it’s also important to remember the subjugation of Ireland and the imposition of Protestant nobility and land owners was not only justified by religion but by the notion that the Irish were lesser creatures governed by emotion who needed the firm hand of British rule. That was not merely a class division. It was often bluntly religious and one oddity is Earl Grantham may have disliked Oliver Cromwell as much as the Irish; it was Cromwell and his New Model Army which is remembered as the time when the full bloodiness of English rule became manifest. That is an interesting subject to learn about as well.</p>
<p>The best book that includes Catholic nobility is by far Brideshead Revisited. Charles Ryder becomes close friends - possibly lover too - of Sebastian Marchmain, the younger son of Marquess Marchmain, who converted to Catholicism to marry. The mini-series with young Jeremy Irons and Antony Andrews is brilliant. The book is even better. Evelyn Waugh’s masterpiece.</p>
<p>You’re all right of course. I keep forgetting the long history behind the Crawleys’ feelings and the rigid class structure. I guess I just keep hoping they`ll behave better but they rarely do. It will be interesting to see if the series gets into the decline of these great aristocratic houses, and if that brings changing attitudes in the younger generation. We do get some glimpses…</p>
<p>This is an excellent recap of the issues in last night’s episode. Great analysis of Robert’s issues and the way his old world is changing.
[‘Downton</a> Abbey’ Recap: ‘The World Isn’t Going Your Way’ | Movies News | Rolling Stone](<a href=“http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/downton-abbey-recap-the-world-isnt-going-your-way-20130203]'Downton”>‘Downton Abbey’ Recap: ‘The World Isn’t Going Your Way’ – Rolling Stone)</p>
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There’s a Democratic Rockefeller now … West Virginia’s very own retiring senator and former governor Jay Rockefeller is a democratic as FDR (and comes from a similar background.)</p>
<p>I wouldn’t like them to Bowdlerise Downton for modern ears, truth be told, and anti-Catholic sentiment would have existed more then than it does nowadays. Nowadays we let them own property and join the army, but it’s only in the last few months that the prohibition on the monarch, or their spouse, being Catholic has been removed. My mum grew up Catholic in the North of England and I don’t think she’s ever mentioned any anti-Catholic sentiment, although her and her sisters were discouraged from mixing with non-Catholics. I can’t say the Catholic message ever sunk into any of them particularly well - only one remains even vaguely Catholic out of 5. </p>
<p>Separation of church and state doesn’t exist in the same way that it does in the US, it’s true. There’s an official religion (Church of England, invented 1534 because King Henry VIII wanted a divorce, and the Pope wouldn’t give it to him). School prayer and hymns happen - and it’s a legal requirement (though there’s scope for interpretation). Bishops sit in the House of Lords, the legislative body very broadly similar to the Senate, which Robert Crawley also sat in, a right he inherited. But on the other hand, it’s a far more secular country than the US, regular church attendance puts you in a very small minority and the bishops in the House of Lords have naff all power anyway.</p>
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<p>Oh, Catholics could always join the British army. Thousands of Irish Catholics did it during World War I. They “just” couldn’t be officers. </p>
<p>I don’t think Americans should be quite so high and mighty about all this. His faith was very much an issue when John Kennedy ran for president, after all. (It probably helped him as much as it hurt him since so many Catholics who would normally have voted for a Republican voted for him.) There were people who honestly believed that Kennedy would take directions from the pope once he was elected. </p>
<p>My dad attended a not all that prestigious US university during the Depression. The most elite frat on campus tried to get an exemption from the national organization to offer him a bid. No dice.No Jews or Catholics.</p>
<p>Harvard and Yale had quotas for Catholics and Jews into the mid-1960s. Under Griswold, Yale fought tooth and nail against a proposed Connecticut law that would have made it illegal to ask religion on a college application.</p>
<p>So, lets not pretend there wasn’t religious prejudice in the US.</p>
<p>Oh, and for the record…</p>
<p>Henry VIII didn’t want a divorce. He wanted an annulment. </p>
<p>His first wife, Catherine of Aragon, was previously married to his older brother Arthur, the Prince of Wales. It’s unclear whether the marriage was consummated. Arthur died. The Brits had a problem. Shipping a possibly no longer a virgin, no longer going to be our future queen Catherine, back to Spain was problematic. </p>
<p>The simple solution was to marry her off to Henry VIII. But, as you may remember, Christ says in the New Testament that a man shall not marry his brother’s widow and that was (and is) Church law. So, the Brits appealed to Rome to grant them a dispensation, i.e., a special exemption from this rule. It was granted.</p>
<p>Later, when Henry wanted to ditch Catherine, he argued that the marriage was invalid because he could not marry his brother’s widow. He wanted the marriage annulled. The Church refused, saying that the Church had granted him a dispensation and that dispensation made the marriage valid. Henry and his advisers argued that the Church had no power to grant the exemption and that the marriage was void from the beginning.</p>