My daughter got in off of petition as she was test optional. She had a 3.8 unweighted gpa. She only had one B. It was the few A- (3.7) and only core classes calculated in her gpa that dropped it to a 3.8. Not all gpa’s are indicative of the whole story as we all know. SRAR is not a bad idea. I feel for these pre-business kids. Kelley was just too many kids, too many finance majors per class to be a good fit for my daughter.
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True but at least they are still in Smeal.
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Sure. I assumed the other courses could be chosen carefully or done in Ivy Tech. Not sure if they closed the Ivy Tech loophole.
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I believe it is closed. Freshmen have to take the new math class created specifically for Kelley.
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Yes. Our kids HS reports both GPA and WGPA on transcripts so our last one will have a 4.52 as her highest reported GPA after Junior year and application to Kelley.
But there are schools which do not use weighted grades and/or don’t report them. I found their (IU/Kelley) to use whatever GPA was on the transcript as an interesting choice as opposed to simply GPA - or to give both a GPA and WGPA figure similar to giving both a SAT and an ACT cut off. But if the goal is to try to streamline their ability to pull students thru an ADA with -minimal- human interpretive decisions or work, then the more steps you add in data entry or thresholds will sort of counteract that aim.
DA or ADA?
As I described above, if you raise the ADA requirements above then you should have fewer ADA students accepted.
The outcome of this is likely to be;
Perhaps a few% points of the Higher competitive students who would currently gain entry thru ADA may choose not to apply, because Kelley originally wasn’t in their top 3 or 4 choices and they were using it as an easy application / safety (guaranteed in with not a lot of effort) with GPA of 3.8 or 3.85 or ACT of 30 or 31 (if the standards are raised to say 3.9 / 32) and now they’d have to make sure their application is ‘solid’ for a DA review - they might not apply.
But the bulk of those students who now drop from ADA to having to go thru DA review who are interested in Kelley, will more than likely drop to DA review status. So Kelley effectively increases the pool of students in DA Review - which is time consumptive and subjective in the nature of evaluating candidates, and this aspect is one of the likely reasons they created the ADA and the ADA thresholds to begin with. Maximize the number of high performing candidates which apply, with a ‘low’ barrier of entry to apply(simple calculations) and get in, and a low level of necessary resources for Kelley admissions to utilize on that desirable cohort.
So DA review gets lots more work to do - and us parents are already complaining about the interminable wait for answers from admissions…
Plus I have to believe that Kelley has some level of data capture to give them an idea of ADA student performance and DA Review student performance (in Kelley) that tells them, if we raise the GPA by 0.05 or 0.10 or test scores by 1 or 2 points on ACT… those students who would previously have gotten in on ADA and are now DA review… still would get taken by DA review at 75-80-90-95% anyway. So illogically, lets increase our workload by 25-50% on DA review…and find out it only makes a 5% or 10% difference in outcomes over who is actually admitted as ADA/DA. That doesn’t seem like sound logic when dealing with ‘scarce resources’ like Admissions labor hours.
-or-
Whether or not you increase the ADA criteria lets say they increased the the DA Review threshold, so that fewer students receive DA review acceptance coming into college so that there are more slots available to the SA students after first/second semester performance. This only increases the number of students who are not guaranteed a slot in Kelley unless they perform to X-X-X standards after one year. I would tend to think that the best predictor of future performance is past history - so those kids who ‘would have’ previously been accepted via DA review, probably skew higher in their (now new) SA role and get in. So they still take a disproportionate number of seats as opposed to students who were DA review declined or SA path from he start and trying to get in. 100% correlation? certainly not but it’s probably got a higher correlation than someone who was not ADA or DA competitive coming out of High School.
Lastly, and this may or may not be a real thing for many applicants - but it’s one point of consideration in our own household…
If we look at T10 and T 20 undergraduate B-Schools, I think we might generally agree that those schools are, to a large extent, also associated with Colleges/Universities with Top 25 - Top 50 Undergraduate at large rankings. Kelley ranks in T10 bschools, but IU Undergraduate is an outlier by comparisons to the other institutions with T10 or T20 B schools. (SMU may be another exception). It is also not “In State Tuition” for us.
As a parent counseling a student who is competitive for T10-T20 Bschool admissions, but is not an elite candidate, and is also coming from a state where we have Instate Public University which has a T10 Bschool within a T25ish Undergraduate institution - and the Bschool does very few DA acceptances out of high school, most of the Bschool is admitted by application after their first or second year of undergraduate work - we’ve had discussions about the whole landscape.
Without other very obvious influences coming in (Full ride somewhere / absolute dislike of campus etc);
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First choice would very likely be In-State Flagship with DA to the B-school
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Second choice would probably be In-State Flagship general acceptance with a shot at BSchool entrance after 1st or second year (think SA at kelley but this is a legitimate application process as there are no cut criteria of guarantee).
*However, we may give substantial weight to another T10 or possibly T20 B-school which offers ADA/DA guarantees over In-State flagship general acceptance (with the risk of a failed application into the bschool).
There’s also a reasonable chance that our student might not even be accepted into our Flagship as a general enrollee, because even though she’s at the higher end of the typical student accepted - there’s still only a 50:50 or maybe 60:40 chance of acceptance even with her stats.
- So in the event she does not even gain acceptance to our flagship as a general enrollee (say Econ Major/Business minor, much less DA into the Bschool) - then we are looking at the other B-Schools as options.
All things considered, if she’s DA into a T10 Bschool (but not our flagship T10 Bschool), we will weigh the different B-Schools against each other at that point. But if shes DA in one or more and only has an SA route (like IU) or an Application Route (not even a standard admission threshold guarantee) at others…we’d likely not consider something with a level of uncertainty, even though she’s proven she’s likely to be competitive for application entry later.
- And taking that a step further, if shes not ‘in’ our State Flagship, and she’s not ADA or DA into another T10/T20 Bschool, but is only ‘pre-business’ with either SA with a high threshold or true application to get in after a year or two… My brain is dropping right down to the ‘what if’ proposition of the individual school - whats the reputation of the (non-bschool) school and reputation of the likely majors of the (non-bschool) schools majors. Because IU undergraduate is an outlier in comparison to the other Schools with T 10/T20 Bschools, if she were to not qualify for ADA or went to DA review and was declined and told to go thru SA at IU - our other school options would likely prevail.
Now, for those parents with kids who do not currently hit ADA or even DA review acceptances (for whatever reason), that may be some form of internal monologue saying… ‘it’s more fair to make them compete after 1 year of undergraduate’ or ‘then she didn’t really want to go to IU/Kelley in the first place’ or ‘more room for my kid’ - well I understand that personal bias as well.
But it’s a logic progression for me, and as a parent (or student) I am not alone in that decision tree analysis because I’ve watched the other threads from years past of parents and students going thru that exact +/- if this than that dialogue and these aren’t comments coming from students who are at the lower edge of the competitive candidate pool.
So I have to believe, if my daughter and I can decision tree this thing out in that fashion, and we can see other relatively high achieving /competitive candidates and their parents doing the same - Kelley Admissions has to have an understanding and appreciation of that situation.
Just my two cents.
Look for programs within b schools for an edge at schools that aren’t T10. My daughter was admitted into Ignite Honors at Fordham Gabelli which was very compelling and came with a huge merit award. They pay for two travel abroad experiences with this small business cohort and take classes together all four years. Or Sapphire Leaders within Smeal at PSU. Or BEL (Business Emerging Leaders) at Wisconsin - also came with a substantial merit scholarship. My daughter went with BEL at Wisconsin over Kelley. Kelley also has ACE. Anyway, these programs within business programs were not on our radar at first but we’ve been impressed. I think they will help with clubs and workshops at those schools. She got into honors at Indiana and UMass but those didn’t seem to mean a whole lot.
Just some thoughts as you go into next year. You can also consider a safety like Alabama for DA. Get a rolling admit to business early on and that makes things feel less stressful. Good insights on Kelley! It’s crazy out there for these business kids!!!
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Agree - it’s tough. Lots of high stat / high profile kids don’t get in a some T10 schools while they do get in others. And it’s difficult to parse out why one but not the others.
I am a UNC KFBS MBA. Carolina is our instate T10 undergraduate Bschool, but the small DA admits out of HS and then having to apply after 1st or 2nd year is a risk proposition. We are currently doing that with our son who had a sophomore start guarantee at Carolina - so he began college at Purdue in Daniels School of Business (and excelled) but is now at Carolina — but in the College of Arts/Sciences as an Econ major/Bus minor (hopeful) and stands to apply to KFBS this fall and if not then at the end of second year. He may also look at applying for a second transfer to Texas/Mich as a chance to go there if he doesn’t get in at UNC-KFBS. Though an Econ Degree with high stats and good LSAT/GMAT would certainly lead him into T10/T20 Law/MBA programs as well so staying at Carolina may be the correct choice regardless.
Younger Daughter should be an ADA at Kelley unless the stat criteria really jump. She’ll also look at DA at Texas McCombs, Michigan Ross etc. UNC KFBS would be her first choice (currently) but getting DA to KFBS is a looong shot, and getting into UNC general isn’t a lock even with her profile. Her app list is around 22-25 schools currently, though I’m sure it will get trimmed down (and she’s going to Kelley’s Womens Leadership Institute program to visit campus this summer - so she’ll at least get a feel of Bloomington Campus). Alabama, even as a DA, is not on her list as again she should be ADA at Kelley unless stats jump - though she might qualify for more merit awards at Alabama, she might see some from IU, but if not, we are fortunate that we don’t have to make significant decisions based solely on economics of COA. I don’t want to ‘throw money away’ but we have latitude that many folks simply don’t. The ADA at Kelley and Kelley undergrad Bschool ranking certainly has Indiana pretty high on her list of alternates to UNC.
Her older Sister is starting her 4th year at Texas (as OOS), and LOVES it there, but she’s in a different field which is a top 5 rated program in the country - for which there wasn’t a match at UNC.
Good luck
Good luck! You have a lot going on! Lol. The Kelley program this summer will be great! I’d really consider the size and competitiveness of the workshops/clubs. There are some good parents groups for Kelley on FB. I tend to believe it’s the student not the school but why not have the best of both if you can. I went into investment banking from Clemson and my husband went to Alabama and later full tuition merit at Columbia MBA for value investing. I’m a firm believer that talented and driven kids will find their way. Will be interesting to see what happens with Kelley. Their P&Q rating fell quite a bit and I think it was due to admissions standards (ranked 40th). Not that p&q matters but their admissions strategy is interesting.
This is true for the most part I think. I think school fit to student is also probably a big driver of student performance success. A student that gets into a “great” school (as in highly rated) but is absolutely miserable just may not perform as well, individually, as going to a school that’s not so highly ranked but is a much better match to their personality and needs.
And ultimately, if the student goes on for Grad/Professional degrees - where someone did their undergrad work becomes a much less prominent feature, except with respect to prior contacts/networking from that school as well as where they did their MBA or JD or Medical Degree etc.
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100%!
I can’t even read through your entire comments and have my head not spin, lol!! I have two students at IU, they love it, are happy, thriving. One was DA one not. Obviously things change each year at IU and we all have smart hardworking kids!!! College is more than academics, it’s the environment, who they surround themselves with, opportunities they seek out.
That being said, this new change is awful timing for recently committed students who all had many options. I’m on the Kelley FB pages and there are parents sending emails to the Dean, President, etc. They are actually getting responses. Not sure anything will change for the incoming freshman, but ethically it seems bad timing.
As you said, something needs to give. The last time the SAT was higher was several years ago and it was 1390, compared to 1370 now. I honestly don’t care too much as mine are set as rising sophomore and rising senior. But for the Kelley reputation, changing things each year is tough.
We live in New Jersey, and my kids are so comfortable and happy in Bloomington that I feel like it’s our second home. 
Makes direct admit into Ohio State Fisher or another quality business school that much better
Yeah - Changing guarantee criteria for continued progression thru a program once those students have already accepted a slot at IU - some of whom probably did so on the basis of knowing the existing criteria and believing they’d have little issue meeting it and now having it increased by more than a minor amount is…concerning.
If you were going to do that, I would have thought 3+ months before decision dates for incoming freshman would be more appropriate. But perhaps Kelley found out a bit late that they were going to have way too may students make the current SA guarantee cut this year in late spring or end of the semester… still, changing criteria after commitments are made and your students decision may not be easily changed doesn’t sit well.
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A change like this would affect around 1% of SAT test takers (thats all the 20 point increase does to raise your standing) - granted we don’t know what number of students would be affected in the current ADA pool by a 20 point increase - but again, while there might be a few students with 3.8+ GPA and 1370, 1380 SAT who apply to Kelley as an afterthought or only because it’s a “guaranteed easy acceptance” I still have to believe that the majority of kids who would now not be ADA by that 20 point change, would simply ‘upgrade’ their application package and request DA Review - that just increases the workload of IU Kelley Admissions.
I don’t have a better answer as to how you still admit kids to IU as ‘pre-business’ with a guaranteed progress into Kelley thru SA as long as they meet criteria without running into situations of over enrolling -or- increase the criteria for SA progression which, as others have pointed out, starts to become a balancing on a knives edge. Even the terminology - there’s a world of difference between requiring a B+ Average versus all B+s to a guaranteed progression, otherwise it’s an application/requested review of the entire students profile after 1 year?
That is the scenario we have with my son at Carolina - except there is not a guarantee criteria. It’s all application to KFBS in the first semester of sophomore year in order to officially start in B-School in the second semester, or apply after your sophomore year to start as a junior. At least, for him, an Econ major / business Minor with high GPA from Carolina, and prof/grad test scores gives him great options for Grad and Professional Schools which is his ultimate goal regardless. But he has no guarantee he’ll get into KFBS.
Such an interesting discussion. I wonder how Kelley can incorporate a holistic approach with the ADA process and strict guidelines for pre-business. I suppose it widely works out but as we all have seen some really talented kids miss out due to silly reasons like lack of gpa reported in the transcript. Because the petition can be used as a way to correct for gender disparities etc, one has to wonder how they balance a class across gender, socioeconomic status etc. There isn’t a right or wrong here but there are certainly pros and cons to building a class in this manner. I think we noticed this year that more females came off of the petition than males which has been the trend the last few years.
I think at least at UNC you have a really strong school even if business is a minor vs major. But it does create stress and uncertainty. We considered Wake Forest briefly and when the admissions officer said getting into business sophomore year was like the hunger games, we passed. A friend’s son is going to Wake with the intention to study business. My friend is upset bc at orientation they told him to take all of his AP credit courses again to boost his gpa for a better shot at business. They use a gpa ranking as part of their admission into business sophomore year.
Admission to Kelley is guaranteed if the student gets all B+ or higher in their IU courses provided they meet all the other requirements.
Automatic Admission
Students whose records indicate grades of B+s or better in every IU Bloomington course on the first attempt will be automatically admitted.
Regarding taking one’s chances at non-direct admit business programs (Wake, UNC K-F, IU pre-business, etc), it’s often difficult to recommend students take that path if they are sure they want to major in a business school major. Econ is not like studying many business majors. OTOH there are plenty of non-business/non-econ majors in business jobs and some companies/industries may actually seek out/have a preference for non-business/non-econ majors.
Thanks for clarifying!!! I saw someone say it wasn’t guaranteed but clearly it is. Well at least there’s that. I will edit my comment.
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I don’t like the timing of the announcement either. This should have been announced pre-matriculation so students could have been comparing apples to apples.
Kelley has gotten so popular that my bet is that they are running into a problem with overcrowded classes and not enough professors.
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Agreed. And Kelley is already so much bigger than many competitors at around 2,800 students per class. As a point of comparison, UIUC Gies is around 750 students per class, Michigan Ross BBA about 600, UVA expanded to 1,200 in total McIntire, which is about the total size of UNC KF as well.
Kelley, with such a large class size, is highly competitive for certain clubs and other opportunities/access to resources. Many on these CC threads have described the culture as competitive and striving from day one. (These clubs/other resources are also really competitive at some of the smaller schools I mentioned.)
Kelley undergrad is also male dominant, which is why more females get direct admit from petition, and I assume more females are accepted via comprehensive review in the standard admit process (but I don’t know that for sure.)
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