Pakistan

Parent Cafe
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<p>Sooz - Even accounting for population, even accounting for women’s deaths (which the data I shared did), there are FAR more violent deaths in the U.S. than in Pakistan. (And, in 2009, more than half those deaths were caused not by Pakistanis, but by U.S. drones.)</p>

<p>Yes, the Northwest part of Pakistan is likely the most violent place on earth, and I wouldn’t go there. (I wrote Peshawar in my first post). Same is true for Quetta, and likely Karachi. And in the Northwest part in particular, more than half the deaths come from U.S. drones.</p>

<p>As in the U.S., the entire country isn’t unsafe (though, relative to elsewhere, I am amazed at how violent the U.S. really is relative to other places, and how oblivious Americans are to it.) There are particular places, and for particular groups of people. Upscale U.S. colleges for women. One study suggests that 1 in 5 U.S. college women are raped or sexually assaulted. Fewer than 1 in 20 are reported. Most receive few if any services. (The Notre Dame rape cases are highly instructive.) Women in general in the U.S. are at risk, with the numbers at higher than 1 in 5 (not counting child sexual abuse, where very, very few cases are reported). Services for most are slim to none.</p>

<p>As in the U.S., risks aren’t the same for everyone, as some populations receive more protection than others. In Pakistan, embassy/consular personnel are probably top of the list, and especially the women attached. Next would likely be NGO personnel and, again, especially women. Which is why the OP’s d. should be in close communication with the NGO about the details of said protection. (And, no, U.S. women not in relationships with Pakistani men are, by definition, not subject to domestic violence assaults. They are not subject to dowry murders, acid throwing, etc. Though those numbers, when resulting in death, are included in the violent death statistics data.)</p>

<p>Am I saying the OP’s d. should go? No, I am saying she should do a realistic risk appraisal, relative to her reasons for going, and act accordingly. Most of what I have read here isn’t even close. (And yes, I am concerned that she won’t talk to her mother about it.) And Sooz’s point about “right now” is also fair - though it interesting to say the least that anti-U.S. demonstrations, etc., have all fizzled (according to my Washington Post this morning.)</p>

<p>The biggest risk by far is still getting into a car there.</p>

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<p>Agree that the risk of getting into a car is great! </p>

<p>I’m concerned that the D MIGHT have her head in the sand if she is really not wanting to hear the concerns about this trip. IF she goes, she really needs to understand various risks involved and what precautions need to be put in place and to inquire with the NGO about these in advance. Further, as I said before, the risks currently are higher than usual and so some of this is the timing of this trip. </p>

<p>Nobody is arguing that the US is safe. Some parts are riskier than others. </p>

<p>Yes, there are sexual assaults on college campuses in the US. I don’t hear about a lot of kidnappings or violent deaths on US campuses but these are spelled out in the travel warnings for Pakistan. You have focused primarily on sexual assaults. Putting those aside, my concern would be the kidnappings and deaths in Pakistan particularly being an American there at this time. You are focusing on native women in both countries. I am talking of American tourists in another country (which has particularly anti-American sentiment at this time). My concern is not simply that she is a woman in Pakistan but rather, being a target as she is an American.</p>

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<p>I look at it in terms of risk/reward. My life as it is will cease if I don’t drive, so that’s the price I’m willing to pay. I know sharks, sting rays, snakes, and chimps typically don’t attack people, but I have no yearning desire to be in their company so I stay away from being with them. </p>

<p>If someone wanted to go to Pakistan (other than a Seal/soldier who had worthwhile reasons for doing so), I would be against it in the same way I would if they wanted to go hiking in the Iraq/Iran border or sail solo around the world. But if they were to encounter predictable problems, I hope they don’t expect everyone else to drop what they’re doing to bail them out.</p>

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<p>Zipped- Your daughter has invested a lot of time and effort into her studies of Pakistan, including the language. While this job is not in keeping with her career goals, it offers something from her point of view. Does it offer anything beyond her sense it will amplify her grad. school app? I am wondering if her plans beyond PhD include working/living in Pakistan.If so, she is willing to take on circumstances most people would not. Is there a way to broaden her goals -including for graduate school? This country is likely to be conflict ridden and dangerous for a long time, IMHO. I think that re-considering that would be difficult for someone with a master’s level plus expertise on a topic.
I sense from your posts that you and husband have plenty of info about the risks, and are struggling to navigate them with her. I have a DD with similar, though not identical, passions and I think we are in for a long road and whiter hair here. One of my concerns is that once you put yourself on a path to accumulate expertise, knowledge and on the ground experiences that few Americans have, it will snowball into more opportunities in “challenging” (read significant SD warnings) locations. Since my daughter is still an undergrad, I applaud her opportunities on the one hand and fear them on the other. Best to all of you. Your daughter does sound remarkable.</p>

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<p>I would also suggest further caution if your daughter is Jewish. I haven’t heard about any anti-semitic incidents lately, but I remember the Daniel Pearl case, which I am sure most of the posters are familiar with. I think many of the people in Pakistan may be openly hostile toward Israel and may not make any distinction between Jewish people and their hostility toward Israel. Like many on this board, I would be very careful about traveling there.</p>

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<p>[Australian</a> officials in Pakistan warned on travel | Herald Sun](<a href=“http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/australian-officials-in-pakistan-warned-on-travel/story-e6frf7lf-1226049432943]Australian”>http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/australian-officials-in-pakistan-warned-on-travel/story-e6frf7lf-1226049432943)</p>

<p>This pertains to Australians. The risk for Americans is higher given the current state of affairs following Bin Laden’s death and the relations between the US and Pakistan at the moment.</p>

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<p>I would also be concerned that the guards the NGO has are “mostly social” (or whatever the quote was). To me, that is code for “not professional”… think about it. Does the secret service give off the vibe that they are predominately social? And the last time a President was shot at was… 30 years ago?</p>

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<p>TravelNut,
Lived in Indonesia for 13 years and raised 3 children there. There have been periodic well publicized anti-Western events, but the average Indonesian is gentle, warm and welcoming to Westerners. This said, the SD warnings need to be taken seriously and if they tell you to leave, you need to understand that if you choose not to, you are truly on your own. The embassy stranded MANY Americans at the airport in Jakarta in 1998 and would likely do it again if need be. </p>

<p>Jakarta is a ‘family posting’ for the US embassy currently- and there are expat children in many International schools. There are large communities of expats in other larger cities (Surabaya, Yogya, Denpasar, e.g.) and there are good social networks and opportunities. If your child is seriously thinking of living there, learning Indonesian is highly desirable for safety as well as quality of life and employment reasons. </p>

<p>This contrasts with Islamabad, which is currently a ‘single’ posting- I assume this pertains to all of Pakistan. This means that employees are there alone, on rotational assignments. Being curious about a place, being intrigued with the culture or the history does not change this reality and the implications of it. This seems a uniquely BAD time to be traveling to Pakistan, in fact. Being someone who has lived in Pakistan for years and deciding to stay in spite of the recent incidents is different than being a new arriver. The people who are working there with NGO’s do not have the resources of the US government employees or of the larger private entities when it comes to emergency situations… </p>

<p>I am all for saying yes to opportunities that might present challenge, but I feel that these sorts of ‘opportunities’ should be taken by people who have experience and an excellent network of contacts only. </p>

<p>Believe me, if someone is intent on attacking Americans in these locations, they are not going to take the time to check your passport or the maple leafs on your clothes or car window. Western = American for all intents and purposes. Don’t kid yourself otherwise.</p>

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<p>robrym2-I totally understand all concerns about Pakistan. I appreciate your info. about Indonesia. I value the collective wisdom of CC. DD will be there for a couple of months to work and study. We are gathering info., including about safety issues. Glad to hear that your experience worked for your family. If there is any more relevant info for an American woman living in a university dorm, I would be glad to hear it. Unfortunately, despite my “name”, this is a part of the world where few I know have experience.</p>

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<p>A prior poster referred to a study which indicated that 1 in 5 American college women are raped or sexually assaulted. I don’t know how statistically rigorous this study is, but count me as a disbeliever. It is hard to believe this is happening to 20% of all college women. These statistics are probably inflated or distorted to support a point of view by the sponsors of the study. In addition, I don’t think there is any reliable way of collecting the data. I raise this issue because I don’t believe America is as unsafe or more so than Pakistan. It is not even close.</p>

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<p>Somehow I don’t see the US government posting warnings to coeds to not go to Oberlin, Kenyon, Conn College, Colby, Pomona, Penn State, etc.! For some reason, however, they ARE posting travel warnings to go to Pakistan. :rolleyes:</p>

<p>The concern for a young American in Pakistan is not merely sexual assault, as horrible as that is. There is concern for kidnapping or death, and that the resources to help an American may be limited at this very point in time given the current situation in Pakistan itself and in the relations with the US.</p>

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<p>[Taliban’s</a> ‘First Revenge’ for Bin Laden Killing Leaves 80 Dead in Pakistan - FoxNews.com](<a href=“http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/05/13/police-68-killed-bombings-nw-pakistan/]Taliban’s”>Taliban's 'First Revenge' for Bin Laden Killing Leaves 80 Dead in Pakistan | Fox News)</p>

<p>[Suicide</a> attacks in Pakistan kill 80; Taliban claim bin Laden revenge - CNN.com](<a href=“http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/12/pakistan.explosions/index.html]Suicide”>Suicide attacks in Pakistan kill 80; Taliban claim bin Laden revenge - CNN.com)</p>

<p>Perhaps this will get her to reconsider.</p>

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<p>Update: D is leaving next week. Many thanks to all of you who understand and helped me to understand this type of passion. Pakistan is what she wants to do with her life. This is the first way open to her to get there and she won’t miss out. She hopes to come home fluent in the language and capable of returning at a later date with skills to help the country recover and prosper. While I think she’s already had plenty of adventure in her 25 years, she claims she understands the safety concerns and will do everything possible to come home alive in a year.</p>

<p>Marrying her great boyfriend and settling down would be my dream, not hers.</p>

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<p>I wish her the best of luck.</p>

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<p>UPDATE. She’s back. Her year was time well spent. She saw a great deal of the country, made real friends, learned a lot, and appreciates life’s little luxuries more. After 36 hours of travel getting home she announced she hoped to never ride in a plane again. Ha. I know better than to believe that.</p>

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<p>I’m glad it was a meaningul trip and that she’s back, safe and sound.</p>

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<p>Congrats. I’m not surprised that it went so well, and so without incidents. (I’m currently working with water people who are bringing technology from Pakistan to Uganda). In the meantime, my alma mater (#1 LAC, with only 2,000 students), said they had 43 rapes on campus last year (that’s not counting sexual assaults.) That’s according to the college president himself.</p>

<p>There are certainly unsafe places in the world to be just now. Most of Pakistan is not among them.</p>

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<p>Mini- I want to add that the Pakistani diet worked as well as your Indian diet. She left small, came back really small. First thing we did was buy her some jeans that would stay up. Size 1/2.</p>

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<p>Yup. Lots and lots of rice carbs is a great way to lose weight.</p>

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<p>Hooray! I’m sure you’re relieved that they weren’t able to talk her into extending for another year.</p>